It's the same with Alsacians in Eastern France. Until the 1970 most of the population there, in der everyday lifes, spoke their Alemannic dialect, similar to the German spoken in Switzerland and the German state of Baden-Württemberg in the South West. They are definitely of German origin, in fact the area was annexed by French King Louis XIV. after the 30 years war. But it doesn't change the fact they consider themselves French and not German.
I think the same is true for many members of the German minority in Poland. Most of them are definitely of Polish stock, but if they choose to consider themselves German, what can you do about that?
All nations are "imagined communities" anyway. I would say more than 30 percent of all Germans are originally of Slavic origin and what do you think? How many Poles are of non-slavic origin: From the Pre-Indo-European original European population, Germanic, Celtic and Baltic?
You mean like Klaus Wowereit, the former mayor of Berlin?
Yes, his surname meant something like "Squirrel" in Old-Prussian. Just take the Lithuanian word for squirrel, the living language that is closest to Old Prussian. There squirrel means "voverė".
if you are still here,-if you have a unlogical demand like this first give millions of lives you had taken back to the Poles and then you will have a face to demand something.
Don't feed the troll! It is a great relief to me that now, in the year 2015, it is possible to have fruitful discussions with my Polish friends, even under such a completely silly headline "When will you Poles give..." because no one gives a shxxt!
Perhaps even some Germans nowadays have forgotten that Prussian was in fact a Baltic, not a Germanic or even a Slavic language:-)
East Prussian toponyms were of Baltic and Polish origin up to 70 percent. It started after WWI that some cities Germanized their names, like the Masurian "Oletzko" turned into "Treuburg". Then in the year 1937 under Nazi rule more than 2,000 East Prussian towns and villages were forced to adopt German style names, with no reference to their original ones, in order to disguise the Non-German origin of the territory. Cities with beautiful names like for instance Pillkallen were named Schlossberg, Stallupönen had to take the name Ebenrode, Darkehmen turned into Angerapp, even beautiful river names like the Szeszuppe were turned into the ridiculous and boring German word "Ostfluss" (Eastern River). In some counties people no longer could orient themselves on maps for a while because practically every village was renamed.
A trifle late by this time, aren't we True? Dispossession hearings and the like ended more years ago than I'd care to recount, furthermore, no German court would even consider such claims (particularly if financial remunerations = finanzielle Verguetung are involved), much less entertain compensation for said "theft".
Actually, Germany stole land from Poland. Three times. Also, the boundaries of Poland moved. So don't be a hypocrite and put the blame on Poland when Germany actually stole the land.
Long before the "gerrymandered" boundry lines between German lands and historical Polish territory restructured by Hitler, the ancient Teutonic Knights had carved up areas of their own from roughly the current French border all the way east up through the present-day Baltic states and even further. Old maps give us a key there. And any reliable historical atlas of Eastern Europe will of course reveal that nearly every Polish and Baltic city or place name, had a corresponding German one as well:-)
The frontiers between Poland and Germany have changed hands so often, one could easily get dizzy! LOL
Especially the "Recovered Territories", right? Any dubious Polish claim to some historic areas from a thousand years ago is legit, while any German claim is not? How about the current borders are accepted by both sides and any discussion about moving them again is dangerous BS?
Technically accurate
Nope. If you go back long enough, there was no concept of "stealing" someone's territory. You got invaded, annihilated, crushed ... and that was that. Invade first, don't ask questions later, so to say.
TheOther, while theft may be deemed relative in hindsight, the fact remains, that from the Livonian Templars on down through the Nazis, the more powerful German territories most certainly DID take over aka had no intention of "returning" much formerly Polish land which was acquired by military redistricting.
Although period documents, even maps (usually barometers of accuracy, since they reflect the present state of geographical location) may vary, the once outsized German Empire (Deutsches Reich) extended into territories nowadays squarely within Poland proper!
@Polonius, that many European cities/capitals have Polish names doesn't reverse the fact that Akwizgran and Monachium do not appear on German atlases, any more than Cracowie or Varsovie never appear on Polish ones because those are the French names ascribed for reasons of pronunciation patterns:-) Toponomy is for sure an interesting study, yet my point before was that of you look at German atlases of Poland, including the Baltic states, one can still see Lodsch in parethesis alongside Łódź, Bromberg side by side with Bydgoszcz, Danzig next to Gdańsk, as well as Wilnius/Vilna, Memel/Klaipeda, Dorpat/Reval etc....
My thought exactly. Who sane could put such a crazy question when we all know very well that Germany and German nation wouldn`t even exist if somebody just give back to Poles what was stolen from them.
Germany existed before Poland was even a country (as opposed to a nation or politically unified territory following her official independence in 1918). Teutonic conquerors invaded as far south as Italy and as far west as France while still known as Gaul:-)
No, not incorrect. Poles, as all Slavs after all are natives of their lands, natives of Europe. Germanic nation come to existence thru fact that Sarmatian (ie Slavic) lands were occupied by Romans and Germania became Roman province. Then, after process of Romanization, with time, came to formation of unique linguistic Teutonic group. Then it start to spread like a new wave of plague onto the Slavic (ie Sarmatian) lands.
@Crow, Slavs obviously inhabited Europe, along with the Germanic tribes, Balts, Alemanic peoples etc., no one's questioning or denying that! The bone of contention is whether or not certain lands or territories claimed as Polish are in fact LEGALLY Polish or whether or not they were "purloined" shall we say without the written consent of the original owner!! For that matter, there are territories such as Southern Denmark (known to this day in Danish as "Sonderjylland" or Southern Jutland, which during the 19th century were legally deemed to be part of Northern Germany, where to this day, both Danish and German are both legal languages for official documents and whose inhabitants are often completely bilingual:-)
i would remind you of destine of Slavic Arkona. Lands in back in those times recognized as Slavic (Sorbian) lands even in international papers and then occupied by invading Danes/Germanics. Not to mention lands of Polabian Slavs, etc, etc lands in historical data registered as back then Slavic lands. And look where are those lands now. Even in time when those lands were occupied it was known as illegal act of aggression but, those lands never were returned to Slavs. Actually, quite contrary to it, even today, Slavs suffer cultural genocide. So, genocide in past is continued with cultural genocide. Whit hat aim? Destruction. Pure and simple- DESTRUCTION OF SLAVS.
Or take Picts on what are today`s British islands. If we know that Picts were Sarmatians (ie Slavs) and, back in past their lands known as Sarmatian lands, how come that are those lands greatly Anglicanized today?
Or shall we mention old Slavic Great Moravia, internationally (even by the Pope) recognized state, illegally replaced by the Hungary with great effort of Romans and Teutons.
My friend, remember one thing. Free Europe is Slavic (ie Sarmatian) Europe, at least culturally. See, that Europe, free Europe, does not exist. On the contrary, repression strengthen.
Especially the "Recovered Territories", right? Any dubious Polish claim to some historic areas from a thousand years ago is legit, while any German claim is not?
I should bring your attention to the fact that Germany's claim to Silesia would be even more dubious. All subsequent rulers of Silesian lands after Poland's Mieszko I (before 963 to 992) came into possessing them in a legitimate way until the times of Frederick the Great of Prussia who mercilessly conquered almost all of Silesia on the Austrians in 1741. The famous battle of Leuthen (Lutynia) west of Breslau (Wrocław) was brilliantly fought by Friderick. And as a result - after Silesia was taken away from Vienna by force - Maria Theresa of Austria had to live through sleepless nights to the very end of her days - such big was her dispair and sorrow after loosing Silesia, the jewel crown of her empire. I am sure that if Maria Theresa could have been re-incarnated these days, she would have told the Germans to **** off, prefering Silesia to be Polish rather than German (Prussian).
So, having such a tremendous, be it only imaginary, support of the last really legitimate ruler of Silesia (Maria Theresa was Queen of Bohemia), Poland's claim to Silesia is much much more justified than Germany's, my dear TheOther.
How about the current borders are accepted by both sides and any discussion about moving them again is dangerous BS?
With this I may only agree. Just as Germany accepts the Oder-Neisse line as its present western border, the people of Poland should accept its present Bug border with the eastern neighbours.
What happened before loving memory is barely if at all relevant. All that matters is the people who live there. Silesia is Polish, so is Wroclaw, Sczecin etc, and Lwow is now Ukrainian.
All those places have a rich heritage, They also have a thriving and more relevant present, and populations who are happy with the status quo.
Nothing is irrelevant. What was Sarmatia (ie Slavia) once, Sarmatia is forever. We are the ones who shall decide what would remain outside of our primary borders. Even that in Europe what remind outside, shall obey to the culture of the ancients. All belong to venerable ancestors and their children. Before these last provocations of western Europe finishes all foes and vermin shall tremble at the sight of new glory of our civilization. Enemy shall learn not to exploit its dirty schemes on us. Just then we Serbians shall rest easy.
What Germany? What France and Britain?? All infidel after infidel and unhealthy weakling after weakling. Their rule in our night mares is over.
Just as Germany accepts the Oder-Neisse line as its present western border, the people of Poland should accept its present Bug border with the eastern neighbours.
That was my point, Ziemowit. Neither Poland nor Germany should come up with territorial claims that are based on some historic borders from a hundred or a thousand years ago (doesn't matter). Both countries and their people should accept the status quo and move on, and they have come a long way already. Why risk that achievement?
people should accept the status quo and move on, and they have come a long way already. Why risk that achievement?
I agree however that is not the way societies work. Take slavery for example, after all the people that were abused their kin are still whining with their hands out thinking THEY (who never where involved) are owed something for some dumb reason.
Mortal enemies are not forever. Amongst nations alliances, friendships and hostilities evovle over time. The British were once Americans' mortal enemy, now they are a special ally. Maybe someday you'll realise that Albanians are a brave and noble breed which you will come to admire and respect.
Well, let us hope that after next global conflict Poland and Serbia found itself on the winning side. It may give us more maneuverable space to choose our friends more easily
You Serbia should sort yourself out first instead of stirring things. Asking for Russian help won't get you far. Better focus on promoting Intermarum idea without Russian paws in the jar cause only then that idea makes any sense at all.
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Just as Germany accepts the Oder-Neisse line as its present western border, the people of Poland should accept its present Bug border with the eastern neighbours
Honesty Ziemowit, there are no connection between those two issues. Your namesake Piast would be sorely disappointed in you. --
