When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed?

Seems to yours truly that the shoe should be on the other foot:-) Land and cities the Poles stole from GERMAN territory??!
A large number of Polish towns have both native side-by-side German names as well, e.g. Bytom/Beuthen, Kołbrzeg/Kolberg etc. How many German towns which DON'T share the border with Poland by contrast have Polish names alongside the native German ones, huh?

Methinks somebody's got things a bit backwardsLOL

In 1939 Germany sold entire eastern half of Poland to Soviet Union for oil and natural resources (Ribbentrop - Molotov Pact of non-aggression). Poland will NEVER see those lands again, so Germany owes Poland land. Those lands were all Polish in some point of history, anyway. Even East Prussia: Warmia (Ermland) was an integral part of the Polish Kingdom from 1466 to 1772; the rest of East Prussia was a Polish fief from 1466 to 1657. (Only Kłodzko was never a part of Poland, but it was inhabited by Poles.)

Who ruled where in 1466 is no basis for land ownership today.

I understand that, but don't say that East Prussia was NEVER Polish.

Polabie could use some Slavic reconquista.

Poland should be bigger, not smaller

This is from the American rulers of the planet, we erred in fighting the Germans, Germany should all of Poland and all of the Ukraine all territory up to Smolensk. Polish women are pretty hot.

If you're American then i'm an ET.

In the spiritual sense, Poles can rightly claim any land they have tilled, where they have worked, loved, prayed, built their homes, raised families, laid their ancestors to rest and left their blood, sweat and tears in. Only those espousing the "might makes right" mentality can say some land was never Polish or belonged to Poland only in times of yore.

Here we can see how he has added more than 200 years to the period of posession of Schlesien by the Germans (Prusians). In fact Schlesien had become part of Prussia in 1741 as a result of a war between Austria and Prussia. Silesian principalities governed by the Piast dynasty members were legitimately taken over one by one by the Czech Crown in the 14th century.


You may not know that, but most German towns and villages in Eastern Germany have names which are germanized Slavic names like Strzałów which became Stralsund or Roztoka which became Rostock or Zwierzyn which became Schwerin. The old capital of the Obodrites Mechlin became Mecklen-burg and subsequently had given the name for the entire province MECKLENBURG. The Slavic prince Niklot had started the Mecklemburgian dynasty which governed the Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg until 1918 when the duchy ceased to exist.

Until now only several Upper and Lower Lusatian towns in East Germany have retained double German/Slavic names among them Bautzen/Budyšin, Cottbus/Chóśebuz or Weißwasser/Běła Woda.

That, Pol3 would mean that the Republic of Poland could stake a claim on my home town and yours since neither for generations have lacked people who identify as Polish.

You should substitute the word 'Poles' for the word 'people', since no one country has any more or less right to 'rightly claim' any territory on those grounds. And it would (see how stupid nationalism is) mean that the Germans have a claim on a hefty chunk of Poland.

Sad to see you agreeing with the OP here.

Have you ever visited Lusatia? It's a beautiful place, and (usefully for me), many things are translated into Sorbian too. I can't read German for love nor money, but Sorbian is remarkably easy to read...

Anyway, I think the current state of affairs is quite satisfactory. Germany has no claim to Polish territory and Poland has no claim to German territory, so what's the problem?

The problem was about reminding Lyzko that German towns have or had Slavic names, too. The last time there was a chance for an independent Sorbian state was shortly after the WWII, but Stalin rejected the Sorbian plea to create one in fear of antagonising the East German communists in the Russian occupation zone.


No, I have not. The Upper Sorbian language seems quite likely to die out, however, but is as yet in a better shape than Lower Sorbian further north.

Did you know that one of the Polabian Slavic languages survived as long as until the 16th (or even 17th century) and it was west of the river ELBE, while other Polabian languages between Elbe and Oder vanished much earlier?

So can the Germans, the Austrians, the Russians, the British, the French...

well to take that idea to its logical conclusion does that mean that British people can retake India, NZ, Aus, USA< etc?

That's what I meant. Where does it end?

That what rightfully belong to Poland is one thing. Reality is something else. Reality of Poland right now suggests that Poles can`t expect to keep for themselves even what is today`s Poland. With questioned loyalty to Slavdom of its diaspora, with massive arrival of foreigners to Poland, with economy dependable solely on western Europe and USA, with Poland isolated from other Slavic countries, with corrupt politicians who seek to connect themselves even with mafia bosses for the sake of foreign interests of all kind, with government that too often ignore stance of the Polish people, with politicians who distinguished themselves to push Poland in war with Russia or at best to keep Poland in eternal state of confrontation with Russia, with politicians who defend interests of Anglos and Germanics and not of Poles.... what should then Poland and Poles expect?

Well, we are talking about the definition of "rightfully" at the moment... :)

Not to mention how many Poles abandoning Poland, to replace their traditional education and understanding of things, with the new views on anything, new `knowledge` that they receiving from their already Anglicanized, Germanized, Americanized, Canadized, etc, etc, countryman that pays taxes to foreign governments while don`t care for Slavic culture and even consider it for something backward. Better not to think of anti-Slavic and anti-Polish indoctrinated foreigners who regard Poles as infidels and humiliate them in every opportunity. Or should we think of influence of western European and USA mass media on traditional Polish Slavic families, abroad or even in Poland?

About which lands we talking about? What belong to Poland and to Poles anyway, with this state of things?


rightfully? Let me tell you then. Poland is part of EU and NATO. Thanks to shared responsibility, in any war started by EU or NATO, Poland may lose everything and for sure gain nothing even if are EU and NATO winners in the wars.

Even without any wars, as part of EU and NATO, being part of foreign civilization, Poland would with time cease to exist as Slavic Poland. If that is something good then alright, its ok.

So, term `rightfully` is pretty elastic. All what is today or what was yesterday rightfully Polish, tomorrow would rightfully belong to who knows to whom.

Only bright thing in current Poland`s and Polish environment are two factors, the internet and the Serbians. Exclude these two factors and all what goes with them from mathematics and there is no Poland.

You clearly know less than nothing about Poland, Poles and Polish history. Why not learn a little before posting here?


You clearly know less than nothing about Poland, Poles and Polish history. Why not learn a little before posting here?


Poland will survive just fine without Serbians, thank you very much. Anybody who thinks Poles need Serbians in any way knows even less about Poland, Poles and Polish history than people who think that Poland should give anything back to Germany.

I wasn't aware of the fact that there was such a thing as a unified "Slavic" language". Care to elaborate on that?


The question that springs to mind is "why should they carry two names" ? In said towns, particularly in and around Cottbus, everything is done to accomodate the Sorb minority. Being from Berlin, I know the area quite well and never felt that there was an urge for independence of Sorbian land or issues regarding equality. For as long as I can remember travelling to Cottbus I remember the double language signs.

On the Polish side of the border in Silesia there have also been developments in recent years with towns displaying both, Polish and German names, on the entry signs when driving into the town / villages.

I am not sure which issue you are trying to raise. Personally I feel that on both sides of the border the right measures are being taken to accomodate everyone and all minorities.

What happens at the Polish-German border is just what happened on Germany's western borders 20 years before. Since the border becomes invisible it becomes more and more blurred. When driving vom Aachen on the German western border zu Belgium or the Netherlands you sometimes have problems to spot the border point. Suburbs of Aachen spread several kilometers deep into both neighboring countries.

By the way: before the war there were no two people in Europe that were so mixed and intertwined as Germans and Poles. We should not forget that the sharp and small border that still exists between Germany and Poland today is something new for us. Just look at the German-Polish language border of the year 1910 on this map. The languages switched sometimes from village to village over an are of several hundred kilometers. Linguistic enclaves were common:


The Lower Sorbian language is still alive, but unfortunately its original unique Slavic accent was replaced by a more German like one. For those of you who want to listen to how contemporary Sorbian sounds:

ardmediathek.de/tv/Wuhladko/Wuhladko-Das-Magazin-in-sorbischer-Spr/MDR-SACHSEN/Video?documentId=29856188&bcastId=7545372

Watch their news! The more clicks they get the more air time on TV they receive.

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  800pxGerman1910.png
  

That is not the right comparison. We are not talking about border towns but villages / towns far away from the border that adapt the German names next to the Polish names.

Sure, but they remain in the German Slav contact zone. A large portion of both states, Germany and Poland, have a large share of that area.

It should be our major goal to overcome the anachronistic romantic 19 century concept of nation - the one that Crow loves so much - that sees the people solely as a community of descent with a common language as expression of closeness. This concept has neglected a great deal the amount of mixing that always has occurred between neighboring nations especially in that Germanic Slavic contact zone. Here a good Wikipedia article:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania_Slavica

A what? Firstly, 99.9999(9)% of things you can see/read/witness in the internet is nonsense. Secondly, Serbians what? Where are they? Can't see them. How come they are any significant for Polish existance (and anything else in that matter)? To a Pole Serbs are just a slavic nation that we mutually support because we are both Slavic and we(Poles) know the price of freedom. How come such a small group of Slavs have any influence on the existance of Poland? As i'm honestly trying to figure it out i got in the conclusion that Serbs developed some kind of a feeling of connection with us just because of our words of sympathy and just because they desperately seek for understanding. Believe me. If the Serbs have been any threat to the existance of Poland we'd treat them as every other nation being so. Seems a lot of stuff happens within your imagination.

poland will be not i guess,this like the poland people

Before you start your trolling, you should read a message more carefully. "Slavic names" mean Slavic names and not a "unified Slavic language".


And I am not sure what issue you are trying to raise.


The real question is: is this small minority able to survive with their language at all? Even if the present German government doesn't not hinder them in any way to stick to their language and culture, will they have enough power within themselves to carry on? Remember that at a certain point when the young people start to feel intimidated to use the language of parents and home, start to mock it as old and funny, this language is virtually dead. At present there are only certain areas in Germany where you can still hear children speaking Sorbian at play and these areas are only in Upper Lusatia. But I am not sure if it still happens in Budyšin/Bautzen, for example. And yet not so long ago, in the 1950s, in Lower Lusatia, quite near to the German Hauptstadt Berlin, died the last man who spoke German only with great difficulty as the language he used on an every day basis was Lower Sorbian! Double language road signs will not change much in this respect. And you are right, speaking Sorbian pronouncing German "r" sounds somewhat hilarious to the Slavic ear (not that I myself do not like the German "r", I am able to pronounce this sound like a real German :-) ). It is true, however, that some Lower Sorbians have retained their firm Sorbian identity not knowing the Sorbian language at all. In this respect they are like the majority of the Irish whose native language is English, but they still feel Irish.

if you go deep enough in history then you reach for a stage where Slavic was one single languge - it's the same thing with Germanic languages

Very deep in history indeed and a world with a tiny, tiny population.

Slavic, pre-Slavic, Germanic placenames are no grounds for current ownership of territory. If so, half of Eastern England would be Danish.

What in your view are legitimate grounds? Big-power treaties backed by huge armies?