Have Poles blood on their hands? :)

The generally accepted definition of oligarch is 'the informal power'. I'd assume that the island scenario would be a formal one, arrived at my some democratic means.

A secret ballot wouldn't work if both were vying for power. Rock Paper Scissors may work.

There could be two people on the island, a Jew and a Pole. Each one votes for himself and then of course nobody wins. The Jew blames it on anti-semitism and the Pole blames it on a Jewish conspiracy. Then they would have to make a coalition which would carry out a policy neither one of them likes. In the end they both compain about how democracy is a sham.

FredChopin:
The generally accepted definition of oligarch is 'the informal power'. I'd assume that the island scenario would be a formal one, arrived at my some democratic means. You say American politics; yes, American politics is by no means perfect. It's loaded with racism, etc. It is representative of Man, who is imperfect. Thomas Jefferson once said: ' I may not like what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.'

Bratwurst Boy:
I'm afraid there is no alternative. 200 years ago it was said that a democracy is not an efficient form of government; but the alternatives are worse. Thomas Jefferson said that the price for freedom is eternal vigilance. What is the alternative you ask. Recognize that there must be a transparent government answerable to the people and the press. Recognize that a free press is one of the necessary elements of a democracy and that there must not be a monopoly of the press, whatever form it takes. A press has a responsibility to the people. Educate the people in logic from little up so that they can intelligently recognize demogogues and their appeals to racism, etc. Education is required for the people to be vigilant. I remember once reading a 1908 newspaper editorial where the wealthy argued against education for a certain ethnic group citing that they'd be 'trouble' if educated.

I think so too...of all tried out forms of governments during the millennias democracy is the most adaptable, most approved, most acceptable...doesn't mean it's perfect or not corruptable (after all also a democracy is made by and for humans).

But as long as no one comes up with a better working alternative we should make the best of it and don't take it for granted...as history shows and even the current world shows it's a fragile, precious and valuable thing!

democracy is the only efficient form of government as long as it use to help humanity better it's self


the democracy is use by animals that where humans got the idea by observing animals

Really???

And here I thought the most common gov of the animals is the mood of the Alpha male...;)
(Well...not that different sometimes...)

This is because neither of two think how to run his own life only. They are very interested how to organize life of the second as well. Democracy leads to socialism and socialism lead to oppressive dictatorship.

the alpha male give right to mate not decision making

Well, that IS the decision in such a hoarde, isn't it...;)

Poland was a german colony. the Poles were slaves of the Greater German World Empire

How did the Spanish treat each other during the civil war chinga a tu madre?

You are a day late and a dollar short. Good day, señor.

vetala I'm waiting ////////////?/

and adm types do not dare to delate this post!!!1

Poles prepared and ate szynka while Jews burned in 'gas ovens' at camps right next door...'Blood on hands' and pork fat, also...Please!

Maybe coz they were hungry?

Boy, you are so right here. You may not know this, but most Jews outside Poland also are not haters. It's the few haters who are the loudest. I know lots of Jews who can't stand the Hater-Jews - the Jews who stir the pot and try to make everyone guilty. They try to find guilt in everyone except themselves. Believe me - the Jews that I know can't stand those hater-Jews (Jews who indiscriminately hate). They're embarassed by them. Sadly, those haters have Sheeple followers. You're right, most Jews in Poland are not the Sheeple followers who believe ugly propoganda. Yeah, how many museums have anything about communist crimes? I blame the decendants of those who suffered from the communists. If the Jews can establish moving museums and exhibits about what happened to them, why can't the Poles and anyone who suffered under communism do the same? They can, but they simply don't. Why?

So what about this gentleman who claims I stole his house?

Good point Joe.
That’s exactly the Hollywood version of history; if an average Joe sees it on TV, it has to be true. If Jews were not the only victims and disparity between Poles and Jews not that great they would not make so much profit out of holocaust, and what better to illustrate that point then Poles eating szynka, Polish children smiling, playing on the playground without a care in the world, sporting the latest fashion of the time with a big chimney in the background. This can easily be achieved in front of green screen with American children as happy Polish children who were promised to be treated to McDonald's Happy Meal after the successful take. As for historical truth and accuracy; who cares? They do have the artistic license they can hide behind, justify it as their interpretation of events to illustrate the point, spread their lies and propaganda while driving the point home in the minds of dumb down American audience that can’t distinguish between the world of reality and fantasy unless you try to educate them to which they reply “Not true, I saw it in the movie”.

Nothing but the truth. Few weeks ago two of my American friends were totally surprised when I presented rather a different story to them, different from what they had known already: "Dude, we saw it in the movie"

Of course Poles don't have blood on their hands: anybody who ever did anything wrong was not a Pole, he was instead a Ukrainian, a Belarussian, a German, a Jewish, a communist or something else not Polish. Just look at Jew-murdering, Nazi-collaborating convicted war criminal Anthony Sawoniuk‎: Polish both by jus sanguinis and by jus soli (and by service in the Polish armed forces) but most Poles who know his name insist that his father might have been Belarussian and thus that Sawoniuk‎ was not a Pole. Same story with Bronislaw Hajda: born in Jordanow, Poland to Polish parents (father's name Stanislaw, mother Zofia, brother, Wladyslaw, and two sisters, Kazimiera and Maria); found by a US court to have been a guard at Treblinka. But most Poles who know his name insist that he wasn't a Pole, he must have been a Ukrainian they insist. Szymon Serafinowicz, another Jew-murdering war criminal (who unfortunately escaped trial by pretending to be mentally unfit) and member of the same Polish army unit as Sawoniuk‎ (10th Hussar Regiment of the Polish II Corps) but most Poles who know the name insist that he was Belarussian (despite him being a Polish citizen, a former member of the Polish army and interbellum police force) because he wasn't born in Poland (he couldn't have been: Poland didn't exist when he was born but the place where he was born became Poland seven years after his birth). The list goes on the more one looks but never does one find a single person that most Poles will agree is a Pole.

What list? Harry list?
Harry claiming to be Internationalist but ardently defending everything British - You are an hypocrite Harry!

The list of Poles who really do have blood on their hands. A list which Poles deny even exists and hence make the same mistakes as were made in the past: invading sovereign nations (a mistake Britain has also made), opening secret detention centres, etc.


Why not just admit that you are entirely unable to disagree with the facts of the situation? It would be so much easier than the oh-so predictable technique of attempting to attack me personally.

Ironside
Sorry, I lost track of our discussion, I will have to reread the whole thread again and see where we finished.

Harry
It's the same thing as with volksdeutche, Harry - the key-point here is whether these people did what they did as Poles or as Germans/Ruthenians/Whatever else. If someone willingly gives up their national identity and assumes the national identity of an enemy during the times of war just for personal gain then in my mind they lose it forever.

Well..the invading Germans weren't seen as enemies by the Germans who were a harassed minority (who either weren't asked to become Poles or if asked decided in their majority to prefer to stay with Germany) in new-Poland.

Why do Poles omitt that little fact so readily?

If they never identified as Poles then obviously they were never Polish.

Ergo they were never "traitors"!

So only ethnic Poles "count" and not Polish citizens in general? Isn't that a bit too simple?

^ Now you see the beauty of the standard Polish excuse! And even for ethnic Poles, most Poles can find reasons to claim that a bad Pole was not really a Pole...

I have no idea who and how was schooled. I was schooled in the 80. I knew about Silesian problems, I knew about Czech Silesia (Zaolzie) problems.

Germans in Silesia were minority. The proximity of Germany and dialect would suggest it is German. The same way west Czech was German.
But it's not. Ask any Slazak who they are - they will say - they are not Polish but no German either.

However, Poland did try to assimilate Czech Silesians the violent way - that's why there's a big opposition to Poland in the Czech Zaolzie.

Silesia? there were few things, but not with Germans as such. Silesia always valued their independency of Poland or Germany - like Kaszuby. No identification with any of them.

If you are a German and I am Polish and we speak to a true Sileasian, you'd understand 50%, I'd understand another 50% but Sileasian would understand 100%.

Polish may not use a word 'wurst'(kielbasa - saussage) but Germans wouldnt use 'zyci' (arse - dupa) or heutzensztongi (cant remember if it was for socks....?)