Ukrainian-occupied Eastern Poland

Since 1772 Lwow was Polish for 19 years only: 1920-1939.
So what was after Middle Ages?


Not even absolute majority.

Ever heard about Burgundy?


And not once before 1991 Lwów belonged to Ukraine. So what is about those dates, you are bragging or crying?


As if Rusini have been ever majority there before 1944!

Well,in any case, are you seriously want to claim some city
which whould be surrounded by Ukrainian territory?Or would claim
corridor of land to it?And which parts of Ukraine are you going to
claim beside Lviv?

I think that Lvov has historically been a multicultural city and that for most of its history, Polish has been the main language spoken there.

But my position as a fairly patriotic Pole is that I am quite happy for Lvov to remain Ukrainian, I hope the Ukrainians take care of it and that Ukrainian culture and language continues to flourish within it.

Amen. History doesn`t repeat itself.

Even if Russians take over Eastern Ukraine with Kiev and all those russified Ukrainians living there, Western Ukraine has still a chance for keeping independence, with Lvov as their capital. But Poland needs to help them.

I agree, and I sympathise with the Ukrainians facing renewed russification of their eastern territories. I believe Ukraine should be Ukrainian, and I say this as someone who generally has a positive attitude towards Russia.

I'm not in position to claim the city.


Hypothetically speaking if I would have been in position to claim anything, I would.
So far I'm just providing my opinion on the issue.
I'm saying that by right said city should belong to Poland.


You are of course entitled to your opinion.

You would claim entire Ukraine if you could?! And were would you want to put Ukrainians?
Exterminate or drive them in Siberia?..

Do you really want to debate?
I wouldn't have claimed entire Ukraine, only those territories that rightfully should belong to Poland.

and they are ?


I want to know what YOU considering to be Polish land in Ukraine.

There's no need for namecalling. We can all agree that Lvov has a very significant Polish history and has significant cultural importance for Poles in general.

Where we disagree is whether Stalin's border should stand. And each of us has his reasons.

I say yes, Stalin's border should stand. Ideally, assuming the loss of Poland's eastern territories to the USSR was inevitable, I would have liked Stalin to have made Lvov a border city and allowed Poles to continue living there, even if the city belonged to the USSR. But that's not what happened.

Ironside feels the city should be returned to Poland.

Pawian feels the city should remain Ukrainian.

I too am prepared to accept the status quo, in recognition of the fact that significant numbers of Ukrainians have also historically inhabited Lvov and the surrounding areas.

Well, you would have to be very precise in formulating your questions.
Do you mean Polish lands, the lands Poland has the right to, historically Polish lands which could be counted in or out depending on circumscribes.


So what?
You mean if Jews would like to claim Lodz as their land, you would say eh take it.

Pardon for my ignorance,but which exacly cultural acheivements happened in Polish Lwow?Which thinkers or scientists originated there?Is it famous for scientific discoveries?

No. What I'm saying is that throughout its entire history, the inhabitants of Lvov and surrounding areas have been both Polish and Ukrainian. While it would be nice if it were a part of Poland or, at worst, a border city, that's not the way things have worked out.

I am prepared to accept the status quo because:
1) Ukrainians have historically been a part of Lvov too
2) Reclaiming the city would be hugely impractical
3) It has become the capital of Ukrainian culture, more so than Kiev, which is mostly Russian speaking.
4) Whereas reclaiming the city would be of modest benefit to Poland, it would be hugely destructive to Ukrainian language and culture.

I sympathise with Ukrainians, who have suffered Russian oppression for most of the last century, and while I recognise the legitimacy of Poland's claims to Lvov, I accept the status quo because executing that claim would be hugely oppressive and destructive to the Ukrainians, and I wouldn't want Poland to be the oppressor.


The Panorama Racławicka of Jan Styka and Wojciech Kossak is a Polish masterpiece, originally created in Lvov. In 1980, it was moved to Wrocław, where it is now one of the main tourist attractions.

Stanisław Ulam, mathematician
Kazimierz Wajda, actor
Adam Zagajewski, poet
Julian, Alfred Zachariewicz, architects
Gabriela Zapolska, writer
Włodzimierz Trzebiatowski, chemist, physicist, mathematician
Witold Taszycki, linguist
Fr Józef Teodorowicz, theologian, politician, patriot
Bartłomiej Józef, Szymon Zimorowicz, poets
Henryk Zbierzchowski, poet

Artists:
Franciszek Tepa
Karol Adwentowicz
Aleksander Bandrowski
Ewa Bandrowska-Turska
Wiktor Bregy
Waclaw Brzeziński
Jerzy Czaplicki
Jadwiga Dębicka
Adam Didur
Adam Dobosz
Bronisława Dowiakowska
Ignacy Dygas
Ferdynand Felman
Władysław Floryański
Jerzy Garda
Anna Gostyńska
Stefan Jaracz
Jan Kiepura
Janina Korolewicz-Waydowa
Jadwiga Lachowska
Tadeusz Leliwa-Kopystański (Enzo Leliva)
Józef Mann
Stanisław Mierzwiński
Helena Modrzejewska
Maria Mokrzycka
Eugeniusz Mossakowski
Aleksander Myszuga
Matylda Polińska-Lewicka
Ada Sari
Marcella Sembrich-Kochańska
Wanda Siemaszkowa
Ludwik Solski
Eugenia Strassern
Irena Trapszo
Janusz Warnecki
Wanda Wermińska
Helena Zboińska-Ruszkowska
Roman Żelazowski

Currently both Ukraine and Poland have territories of sufficient size and no obvious reason for territorial disputes and ultimately have possibility to develop good relations.All those talks about territorial claims is intentional provocation to spark an ethnical conflict.Do you seriously believe that Poland doesn`t have sufficient enough territory now? When whould be the end for those stupid claims: ``We need Ukraine without Ukrainians or with Ukrainians as our slaves``? As population of any Slavic nation is shrinking now,maybe there is time to unite on some new basis?Otherwise both Poland and Ukraine will ultimately loose its Slavic faces and consumed by wisier nations.

Of course there is. Historically, it's been on par with Kraków as one of the most important centres of Polish culture and a much-loved city by former Polish inhabitants. That's why losing it during the war was so painful to many Poles, more so than losing Vilnius, and that's why there continues to be a degree of nostalgia towards Lvov.

But I am happy for Lvov to remain Ukrainian now and forever.


I agree.


Lol, I wouldn't worry about such claims. I've only ever heard things like that on internet forums.


You're right.

And I thought that relations between Poles and Ukrainians were generally quite good. I can't think why they shouldn't be. Ukrainians and Poles are close historically, linguistically and culturally, and it would be in their common interests to co-operate.

Unfortunately, nowadays, they're being pulled in opposite directions, with Poland blindly following the West and Russia exerting ever-increasing influence on Ukraine.

the lands Poland has the right to in your view

Nostalgia is not a reason to make an outlandish claim legitimate.

TheOther

I think you missed the part where I said, "Historically, it's been on par with Kraków as one of the most important centres of Polish culture".

If that's not a legitimate reason, then Poland shouldn't exist at all and Poles should have just thrown their hands up and not bothered regaining independence.

So Germany has legitimate claims to her lost territory in the east as well then? You are opening a can of worms.

Yes, of course it does! Germans have lived in and contributed greatly to the culture of the cities that are now a part of Poland. Poland's borders are a compromise, and they are a compromise that I am willing to accept.

That one is simple - border before WWII!


Nope, I'm explaining to you and explaining to you and you just refuse to listen. Ever heard about unconditional surrender? Do you understand implications of that act? legitimate implications!


Do you think that anonymous debate about that on the internet is able to spark any conflict in the real world? If so there is no much to build upon in the first place.


Why? Do you think that Poles should forget about their terrorizes and say - be my guest and keep it! You shoudl return those lands right after 1991 as the Stalin's gift - as they are mostly poisonous!


Who made such a claim?Anyway it is the Internet you can find anything here.So what?


Nope - has been Polish and Ruthenian and that is different kettle of fish!


Well good for you. As I said you are entitled to your opinion. However your reasoning do not convince me at all.

What good would going back to the pre-war border and going back to Breslau, Danzig and Stettin do now?

Come again

This discussion is about eastern borders as for the west I’m all for reclaiming Hamburg, Kiel, Lubeck, Magdeburg, Leipzig, not to mention Berlin, mind you not for Poland per say but to create a state for Sorbs, a rightful heirs of those lands. :) Something that should have been once the war was over.

Unfortunately, the Sorbs are on the verge of complete assimilation now.


Ruthenians are non-Russian Eastern Slavs who frequently identify as Ukrainian. What point are you trying to make?

Sorbs arrived in the area extending between the Bober, Kwisa, and Oder rivers to the East and the Saale and Elbe rivers to the West during the sixth century A.D.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs#History

how do you figure they're the "rightful heirs of those lands"? What about the "rightful heirs of those lands" before the sixth century A.D.?

You guys are funny. I suggest Poland in the borders of 1914. Problem solved, discussion over... :)

I was thinking that, lol.

I'm only pointing out that by equaling Ruthenians with Ukrainians you are distorting reality.


Let stick to the topic please! If you want debate about ridiculousness of any territorial claims or something else you can make a thread and do it to your heart content.