'Prehistory' Celts in Southern Poland

I've just moved to Zakopane in Southern Poland and am interested in any 'prehistory' (phrase used by Noman Davies to describe pre AD1000 history) of Christian activity/communities before the Roman Catholicisation of this part of Poland. I happened upon this forum through good old Google under 'Celts in Poand' and read some interesting messages - hence joining PF. Looking forward to any further help on this subject.

How you learn things about your own town/ street ahen googling things for people - I just found this when I googled "Poland's oldest traces of the Christian tradition" in Polish.

Also, you may want to read this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_Antiquity

Norman Davies has to be one of the most dubious "historians" I've ever read. His work is unashamedly biased and while his research may be credible, his presentation puts him in the same airport-junk-fiction category as Bill Bryson IMO.e.

The documentation for Celts is pretty massive. You should focus your research on La Tene culture, which was the dominant branch of Celt in this region. However, considering the Celts were developed in the sense of crafts, language and trade, you get a broad range of cultural artifacts that mean a Celtic tribe in west France will have many similar characteristics to an Eastern* European one of the same period. However, they are considered a pre-Roman culture in this region, so their timeline effectively starts at 450 BCE and dries up around 200 CE.

What in particular interests you in them? Their impact on modern Poland, or something else?

*now Central Europe, but Eastern at that time.

why would you say that?

Because I've read some of his books and come to those conclusions, as was discussed in the "Norman Davies" thread on this forum. If you want to discuss that, then let's do it in that thread and not this one, so that this can remain the Celts in Poland thread.

Are you a local to Zakopane? Thanks for the info. Have found it very interesting. Anything else please pass my way!


Wooooh! I only quoted a term he used in a book I was reading - I'm not a disciple.
As to your other question. My interest is to find out the roots of Christianity in Southern Poland, particularly in the Zakopane/Tatra/highlander area/culture before it was Romanised.

No, that link was about Przemyśl, which is east from Zakopane (all way to border east)

Are you interested in christianity before 966 or in Celts? because all the data suggests Celts were here between V BC and III AD /I know nothing It's what Internet says/

So you can find information about Calts in Małopolska/Podhale or about Christianity before Mieszko in that area. And what do you mean by Romanised?

Forced to convert from eastern or local christian traditions to one more servile to the wishes of the Pope.
The same happened with the Celtic Christians of the British isles,happily keeping up earlier christian traditions until Augustine arrived telling peole they were evil and going to hell if they didnt pay tribute to some geezer back in Italy :)

Well, I never thought about it. I don't know any official sources, but some people suggest that we were first Christianized by Cyryl and Metody . You would find some relics from pre Mieszko's baptism (Poland became officially Christian in Roman way) but they are from Morawian or Czech rule of the place. (and they were supposed to be "Roman")

But those are Slavs not Celts

It gets confusing :)
At first Christianity was spread by Rome ( all short skirts,gladiators and Et Tu Brutas, the Empire ), thats how it arrived amongst British Celts first but the Romans (still short skirts and gladiators,but a slightly different version of Empire) who spread christianity first in the East were eastern Romans and came from the Arian tradition ( Jesus as man not God).

Than you skip forward a couple of hundred years and the *official* church of Rome has been born and thats when you get Papal delegates going round Europe telling all the other christians that they were heretics and converting them to the new version of christianity,ie,Romanised....confused? You will be :)

As for specifically the Celts in what is now Poland,i'll sit back and learn from others as my speciality is western history in the early medieval/dark ages :)


Yes, *they say* the same about Britain in the early 7th century even though there had been Christians here since the late first century and it was already the dominant religion of the Roamno celtic british for about 3 hundred years before the Gregorian missions :)

BTW, Im sure a Slav could also be a Celt and vice versa seeing as neither is a genetic ethnic identity but rather a cultural and linguistic identity.

Wow! I'm so glad I tapped into this treasure-trove of info. Thanks for your help. I am interested in Christianity before 966 and I will follow up the Mieszko link. Thanks also to isthatu2 for his help in shedding some light on the term I used 'Romanisation' actually going back to my first post 'Catholicisation'.

I think what I'm really wanting to discover is 'fundamental New Testament Christianity' before it became religious. I have a hunch that there are more 'purer' foundations than are on display in the present day. Although I admire Pope John Paul 11 and what he brought to the Polish and world Roman Catholisism.

I got this quote from somewhere - Zakopane means; 'Popular up-surge of people towards a heartfelt need to express their spiritual roots'.
It also means ‘from under’ referring to the hot springs that rise to the surface and are popular with tourists coming to Zakopane.
So any contributions are greately appreciated.

That is not what the Arians believed. They believed that Jesus was a divine being created by God. They did not believe that he was merely a man.

Zakopane literally means buried/hidden in earth (or snow) (but without grave context).

And while while it is possible there are even now descendents of those BC Celts living in this area, you shouldn't search for Celts if you want to find something about IX-X century in lands where there is now Poland,

I'd read about Great Morawia or Vistulans and Lendians instead

Thanks for that. The Celtic thread was a stab in the dark. Thanks to yours and others comments I'll read it all and after turning over some more stones, probably start another thread.

You are right of course,Im getting my Arians and eastern Gnostics mixed up again :)

There are a small group of us that have yDNA that is very similar to scottish (celtic) DNA (R1b - L47). Due to the rate of genetic changes there is a 1500 -2000 year difference of this group to that found in the UK. This group tends to be from ancestors in the upper Vistula. This could finally give me the explanation of why my ancestors had that genetic material from the Kielce area and when they first arrived in the area. This group can be found at FTDNA.

Dofdan

But, there is no such thing as *Scottish Celtic* people.
There were people who lived in Scotland who had similar lifestyles to other so called *Celts* but the Scots were actually Irish,and the Irish were only *Celtic* by culture. Modern Scots are a mix of Pre *celt* Picts, *Irish*,* Vikings* and *Anglo Saxons*.

But, DNA wise,its not really a surprise that people from different sides of Europe can share certain similarities considering our Ancestors didnt just spring out of the ground where we live now. A trace of DNA does not mean a mass population movement,it could just be a coule of trading ships with very horny crewmen on board :)

In this case I think that it relates back to a Celtic tribe that expanded into southern Poland around 0 - 200 AD. The tribe was called the Cotini and was related to the Celts that were spread across Europe and into Scotland. In this case the DNA is separated from that in England by 1800 -2000 years. It's also from a group that is located int the Upper Vistula near Krakow and Kielce. Not to many sailers made it that far up the river. It would be much easier to relate to the Scottish peddlers from the 16th century but the gemetics do't match up for our entire group.

Dofdan

Cool,now this stuff fascinates me and I can believe it. Its when peole just come out with stuff like " Ive got Celtic DNA" I just think,yeah,whatever you say.........er,pass the beer :)

Its fascinating if you can get that deep,I keep promising myself I'll do the test some day but my Y chromosones will probably be a bit boring as they are irish, its the X one Im looking for to have some continental connections ,lets hope a great great great great etc Granny shacked up with an exotic Roman Legionaire from somewhere on the fringes of Empire :)

( The local *legions* here were the Crispus son of Constantines Panonian Cavalry.....)

And me too! Sorry I haven't contributed lately. Took a break over Xmas but glad you (guys?) have kept the thread going. Am taking in your contributions and researching the info on Wikepaedia. Hope to contribute something in the new year. Have a good one!