I forwarded an interesting video to Torq which I'd gladly share with you, meirys7. An Israeli talks candidly about the perception of Poles towards him. His exp is positive. Now, he is but one individual speaking to a camera but I really don't find much ill feeling towards Jews here.
We can all speculate about what deals might have been done in the past but the time for reparations has largely passed us by. I think more focus should be placed on modern realities (that's not to say we should detract from the importance of reclaim) like the ICJ's 2004 verdict on settlements. Netanyahu is really playing a dangerous game.
Meirys7, his Holocaust denial material doesn't interest me. I've never denied the Holocaust, just the numbers.
Based on what I have read so far, I don't deny the Kielce Pogroms, no. However, I don't pretend to know either way. I really am not one to latch on to a historical position and defend it to the hilt. I guess it comes from my belief in the legal maxim, 'res noviter veniens ad notitiam', matters newly coming to light. One must remember that, whilst we should never condone such atrocities, times were heated and many Poles perished. Rightly or wrongly, it would appear that such people believed Jewish people to have brought Nazism to Poland. Of course it was not the fault of Jewish people in my eyes but people are people.....
Oh, I believe that it could have happened, yes. I don't know for sure as I wasn't there. You have to feel the climate and they may have thought that their lives were to be spared. It's easy with hindsight when we see extreme barbarity.
Can you argue with the fact that some Poles passed information to the Nazis where Jews live?
There were certainly such Poles and there were also Jews who denouced Poles harboring Jews. Some of those were the very same Jews that Poles tried to save. There were also Jews who denounced Poles to the Soviets.
These were crazy times and it is only sad that all that is turning into yet another business opportunity for the greedy. To try and find the truth, which is often somewhere in the middle, I really recommend that you read some of Finkelstein's writings. Since Israelis like to think that Israel is the "only democracy" in the Midle East, I'm sure his books are widely available in Israeli book stores.
Dear torq-I want to thank you for the compliments. There is no doubt at all that the problem of Jewish property should be resolved once and for all. You certainly reflects the moderate Polish logical. There is no doubt - you are a tribute to Poland.
Please forgive me for being not punctual - the main publisher in Poland increased the book's price tag drastically (4500 zloty).
Dear torq-I want to thank you for the compliments.
Those were no compliments at all - merely an objective evaluation of a reasonable and intelligent poster. I hope you will hang around and post a lot.
There is no doubt at all that the problem of Jewish property should be resolved once and for all.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
You certainly reflects the moderate Polish logical. There is no doubt - you are a tribute to Poland.
Please, I'm blushing.
the main publisher in Poland increased the book's price tag drastically (4500 zloty).
That's just one funny bookstore trying to gain some publicity and free advertising in the media. The book's freely available to buy, for 27.99 PLN, in most Empiks (something like French FNAC) and bookstores everywhere. If you want, I can get the book on my way to work on Wednesday, and send it to you as a token of Polish-Israeli friendship. PM me your address, if you're interested.
I'd like to know meirys7's opinion on this matter. I agree that, as far as is practically possible, the issue should be resolved to the satisfaction of all the relevant parties. However, putting myself in the shoes of a Jewish family affected by property loss, I feel the financial resolution is unsatisfactory. For one, it completely belittles the feeling of attachment that some have to their own property. For another, there is no guarantee that the govt will be able to access such people to compensate them.
My question to you is 'how would you bring about practical and just reparation'? Thanks in advance for your answer/suggestion(s)! Shalom!
"seanus"-In my humble opinion - the Polish government must to return the property itself and / or compensation not more than 50 percent of the property value in this time period. If it comes to financial compensation so the arrangement should to issue under bonds for a period of 6 years. Strictly prohibited without the return of property owners or heirs.
The heirs that will receive financial compensation they need to invest the money in Poland itself and not outside it. It need & must to be the first condition to to the issue.
Why don't you send yourself to Israel as a token of Polish-Israeli "friendship"?
:)
You would like that wouldn't you, fatty? I'm afraid I like Poland too much to emmigrate, but I may indeed visit Israel one day - see all the holy places and stuff, why not.
In that case, enjoy the reading (but as I said, there are historians who would appear to be less biased and more professional in their work than Jan Gross, so don't treat everything he writes as undeniable truth.)
Return immovable property? I don't see how, sorry. You mean that those Poles that currently occupy those homes formerly occupied by Jewish families should vacate them and hand them over? How did you come to the 50% figure btw?
What you have suggested, and no disrespect to you, is tantamount to financial ping-pong. What percentage should they reinvest here in Poland? If you believe that the property still belongs to them then why introduce a pre-condition that they cannot dispose of the property as they wish?
I just want to get to the heart of your thinking. Thanks for the answer and I look forward to your next one :)
"Dear torq"-I certainly Sincerely applies to the things of Mr. Jan because I am a grandson of Holocaust survivors (I am 34 years old) from Very young age I was exposed to stories so hard that I'm saving you from hear it. My grandmother had 10 brothers and sisters all of them were murdered by the Nazis. My grandfather had four brothers and sisters and everyone else were murdered by the Nazis before his eyes.
Don't get me wrong, my friend. There is certainly a grain of truth in what Jan Gross writes in his books - I don't deny that. However, his selective approach to sources, for example, as well as quite obvious anti-Polish bias, allow me to refrain myself from wholeheartedly recommending his books. I do, on the other hand, recommend the books by scientists from Polish Academy of Sciences: Jan Grabowski and Barbara Engelking, who write about similar issues, but with substantially higher degree of professionalism.
I am a grandson of Poles who witnessed the Holocaust and demise of their friends and neighbours (I'm 32 years old), and I am well aware of the monstrosity of war, and sufferings of both Poles and Jews. I am very sorry to hear what happened to your family - may they rest in peace, and may the perpetual light shine upon them.
You boys Torq and Meirys7 read too much of Jewish propaganda.For some balance I suggest you watch a great documentary "Der Ewige Jude" (avaliable on YT with english subs).A bit different point of view.
"seanus"-If it comes to financial compensation so the Treasury state must (the custodian of the assets) to compensate the property owners or heirs by 50 percent of the property value right this time period.
You can not take the monetary compensation from Poland that is the all goal, to keep Poland and not destroy it! If we tooking about the return of the property itself, then the law should require the property owner to sell it only to a Polish citizen.
The best thing to do is to gain a rounded perspective by reading a range of sources from Hancock to Browning to Levai. Yad Vashem is also a key figure.
I think the ultimate authority is Raoul Hilberg. He ran a story on American Jewry extorting money through Switzerland to the US.
Meirys7, from the Treasury state? What do you mean? I need clarification, please.
With all due respect, I don't feel that you have answered the question. Poles now live in property formerly occupied by Jewish families. Should they give this up and hand it over? Which international court has the capacity to mediate the plethora of cases?
Oh, on the topic of Finkelstein, youtube.com/watch?v=2JUhjovKdh4&feature=related I'm sure you've seen it before ;) He disputes the numbers, not the event!
"grubas"-Too bad you're spoiling the good atmosphere and says: "Jewish propaganda". This is the anti-Semitic propaganda film made in Nazi Germany in 1940 under the guidance of propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels. The film shows the Jews as thieves, perverts, murderers etc ... But tell me please what you mean by that? what is your point?
Whilst denouncing the 1940 film, I have to say that Zionist propaganda has been a powerful tool in corrupting the minds of Israelis. I suggest 'Sleepless Gaza Jerusalem' on Youtube, 50hrs or so of footage from areas you will know well. It can be seen on many occasions how Israelis just don't understand Palestinians.
Sikorski likes to comment on Jewish issues as his wife is Jewish. However, Hilberg is FAR better placed to comment than he is. Sikorski is just a money seeker.
The reality remains that no amount of money will take away the pain of loss.
"seanus"-all the Jewish assets were nationalized by the state Treasury in 1946,By court order. in These assets living in Polish residents (the state rents them the assets) I suggest, or they will buy the assets from the Jewish owner (only for 50 percent of the property value) or they Will continue to pay the rent to Jewish owners.
Either way the money must stay in Poland to develop the Polish economy.
Aha, I see what you are driving at now. So you are saying that the proceeds of sale (50% of the value) are to be reinvested in Poland? What if the Jewish owner currently resides in Israel and is in no place to practically pump that 50% back into the Polish economy? Why haven't Jewish landlords come forward en masse to reclaim their property?
How do you propose to get round the obvious obstacle of Polish landlords standing in the way of such a development? Which court authority could you point to that would instigate such a change?
"seanus"-I will say the following things unequivocally.
For the property owners and / or the heirs There are two routes to get the financial compensation. the options below. Option 1-to Purchase bonds, stocks, or to buy another property in Poland. Option 2-to Sell the property and to pay for it the sum of minimum- 12 percent tax.
The main objective is to strengthen the Polish economy and not to weaken it!
You can easily convince the Polish government as also the Jewish property owners that is the right and just solution. i truly belive it.
I'm Jewish and I'm proud of it, but there will always be anti-Semites people among us, They always will think that I have no right to exist in this world, but you are a person without prejudice, a civilized man.
I believe animals should be in a zoo.
Unfortunately, still there are people in poland who hate Jews but they do not know to explain why?
Maybe because I'm more qualified? But what's the connection between that and being Jewish?
No doubt - where other people fail, they always will put the Jew fault of their own failure.
Anti-Semitism is not a disease - it's just people's ignorance.
Or maybe American Jews have special rights in America and bilateral treaties don`t apply to them as for the third party ?
AIPAC and AJC are very powerful and influence American politics. Why do you think America sends BILLIONS of dollars to Israel and pretends to supply them for "Defensive purposes". Its just a big lie.
"What we Say Goes- Noam Chomsky" book discusses this in more detail.
"to des essientes"- is to a cow you call "cow" or insted it you trying to embellish her name?
You try to fool all the people here. you know why? I will quote from your words:"Hamas is resisting an illegal occupation and as such are not terrorists, rather the Zionist entity in Palestine is a terrorist state.
wow! You believe your own lies! But the worst thing you're also trying to fool everyone. You make me think that maybe "Hamas" are actually dealing in "art" insted of murder. You are also lying to everyone when you take my words and you Completely ignores from their relationship to My explicit intention. when i say:"I already explained to you there are no rules in a zoo!" the detailed explanation (that you "Forgot" to specify) was that "Hamas" attacks the "IDF" and the "IDF" responds back to the killing of civilians. and This is actually the cause of the all chaos.
You know why it was important to me to hear an opinion from someone like you? I will explain it briefly in order to not overload your brain weight.
When it smells anti-Semitism & when it sounds like it, So, there is no doubt at all - it is entirely a man with anti-Semitic opinions.
I want to tell you something personally. The very best answer for the "type" of people like you is the existence of Israel.
the Polish people is a very respectable, someone like you just degrading the greatness of the Polish people.
Despite everything, I am convinced that the Sane people here treat you exactly as it should relate to someone like you, i mean to ignore!
I suggest you watch a great documentary "Der Ewige Jude
what a dumb fcuking polack.............I suggest you watch "Die Deutsche Wochenschau " am 1939 for an obviously unbiased acount of the german invasion of Poland....................muppet.
at every occasion . Soon , you will not be able to mention a word " Jew" or " Israel" because they will find you antisemite , lol.
exactly. some extra points I would add:
1)some Jews (not all) already think that anti-zionist=anti-semitic (which is absolutely wrong). 2)for the majority of countries the term racist is used but the chosen ones have to make themselves unique with the term anti-semite 3)Palestinians are also semite and the israel army kills them daily.
