Poland and Orientalism

Well...there had been a development in Prussia too...
Under Bismarck it was one of the most advanced and industrialized countries in Europe. Poles profited from that the same. The polish western "re-gained" territories are even now much more modern than the backward eastern lands. There is a reason for that!

Bismark also started a huge damn war.. why do you think there's so many Germans in the US? They ran away from the Franco Prussian. He does sound like an interesting figure though. Too bad Jews run Hollywood because his would be a good biopic, no doubt.

Not only one, but three! ;)
There was no other way for Germany to unificate. He was the founder of modern Germany...and it isn't as if other countries didn't go to war for their unification/independence, riiiiiight! ;)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Prussia#1848.E2.80.931871:_The_German_wars_of_unification

Bismarck is for me one of the most fascinating characters in European history...and the #1 in German history.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck
But I'm not sure why Jews should have something against a Hollywood biopic...it's rather that it won't sell with the American public.

Sorry BB, but it seems that you have been very well inculcated by the German school of propaganda, so let me try to undo some of the damage:

Not content with the territory he had annexed, Frederick inhibited the economic recovery of Poland by all available means. In March 1775 he foisted a protectionist trade treaty on Poland whose aim was to maintain Poland as a source of cheap raw materials for Prussian industry and a market for Prussian goods. Duties of up to 50 percent on some Polish goods and a complete ban on the import of others was to close the Prussian market to Polish industry. a transit duty of 50% on timber floated down to the Baltic ports and one of 90%! on wool were designed to force the Poles to sell these cheaply to Prussia rather than export them overseas. Frederick also squeezed Gdansk in order to make it desire incorporation into Prussia. He slapped a duty of 12% on goods passing Marienwerder, and another 12% on them as they sailed out of Gdansk. The same goods passing Mareinwerder for shipment from Prussian Elblag, were only taxed at 2%.

Indeed the Russians and the Prussians are in many ways directly responsible for the slow development of Poland, and I would be happy to use numerous more examples to illustrate my point. It is also important to note that despite these unfair obstacles, iron production still averaged 1.8 kilograms per capita compared with 1.2 kilograms per head for Germany at the time.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Procession
In the second part of XVIII century in Poland:
manufactures flourished,aristocratic, royal, and the bourgeois, the biggest: A complex of plants in economics Tyzenhauz Grodno (Horodnica, £osośna), weaving factory in Brody, Buczacz, Lovich, Nesvizh, Skierniewice and Warsaw Slutsk, Glass Urzeczu, Nalibokach, farfurnie at the Belvedere, and Telechanach Korzec, some of them, mainly factory magnate, in addition to wage-workers (often foreign specialists) employed serfs


After squeezing enormous contribution from France and incorporation of German states,plus incorporation of Alsace - a poor Prussian state deeply hurt after WWI.


Without Catholic Polish Kingdom non of the protestant states would come to fruition - at last it is a real possibility.
The fact is that only Polish King agreement made the tradition from the Knight Order possession into dukedom of Prussia possible, without his decision first ever protestant stated would had not been .

Ungrateful bastards !

HC, no country was industrialized at the times of Frederick the great, industrialization started during the 18th century mainly....;)

We shouldn't mix the times.


What I said...

Interesting:


"Burghers"...even the word stems from Dutch/German "Bürger"....

hmmm.. could be..


A sausage eating Garibaldi he was .. jk.

I am not saying that Poland was more industrialized than Germany, because it was not. But to pretend that there was some vast chasm between the two-(based on the writings of dishonest 19th century academics who tried to defend the indefensible), when there was not, and that in many respects Poland was more advanced politically-despite the best efforts of Prussia and Russia, is just plain disingenuous and untrue.

Well, it is wiki - the word in the Polish language is mieszczanin, and was in use at the time.

burgher is an English word not a Polish one - Polish never used the word - Polish for a 'burgher' is mieszczanin

"Burgher" is the anglicized "Bürger"....but then..it's the english wiki! :)


How so? You posted that statement repeatedly without any support or links or whatever...

have I argued with that? no?
you were probably thinking that those people in the 'Black Procession' called themselves burghers (or anything similar) - no they did not - they called themselves mieszczanie

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_May_3,_1791

Well in comparison to Germany or Russia it was not ruled by an absolutist monarch, because the Poles did not believe in the divine right of kings, this was the case for centuries before the Germans, Russians and others gave up on the idea.

Absolutism is most strongly associated with a primitive form of governance most strongly associated with the middle ages, as well as some of today's African and other countries. As far as central Europe is concerned, it was Poland who most closely embodied enlightenment philosophy in the practice of governance. Stanislw August Poniatowski, was arguably the most enlightened monarch of his time.

point of view changes in time...what today is seen as modern tomorrow maybe viewed as a useless encumbrance of the past

I have to disagree, only democracy can realize the self-actualization of the person and the satisfaction of the ego, and only the self-actualization of the person and satisfaction of the ego can maintain stability in a country. Arbitrary and centralized government does not cater for either of these preconditions for stability.

The one thing i will have to concede to the Prussians, they have very good March compositions.
Hohenfriedberger Marsch
youtube.com/watch?v=PcUR6y6Kmkk

Yorckscher Marsch
youtube.com/watch?v=Ow5BbhGd5Mw

Preussens Gloria

Well, Poland was viewed as a backwoods country because of the democratic constitution while all civilized countries enjoyed absolute rules.
Today current form of democracy is seen as the most advanced, who knows what tomorrow will bring ?

You don't understand me HC, it's not about how Poles view themselves...you stated repeatedly that the Germans/Prussians viewed Poland as advanced and were even scared.

I would like to read about that....


We have the best ;)

An enlightened monarch doesn't equal an enlightened society. The scientific revolution of the enlightenment happened mostly in the educated circles of France, England and Germany, countries with strong civic middle classes and educational institutions. Having a constitution based on ideas of the enlightenment is nice, but this constitution did little to improve the situation of the people by implementing ideas of the enlightenment. The alleged backward neighbours Prussia and Austria abolished serfdom, while the Polish constitution just acknowledged the rights of serfs. Prussia and Austria also introduced compulsory schooling at the same time.

Firstly i said nothing about how the Russians viewed the Poles, and frankly I could not care less. As for the Germans, my argument was that they did not to my knowledge, equate it with the oriental, if they did than it probably tells you all need to know about the Germans.


They were the first to put into practice the idea of an enlightened state as envisaged by some of the philosophers, that is why they are credited as having the first modern constitution in Europe.

As for "but this constitution did little to improve the situation of the people", well obviously, the Prussians, Russians and Austrians wouldn't allow it to happen. Because as stated by Frederick at the time, they were afraid of a powerful Poland. Prussia only abolished serfdom in 1807, whose say that Poland wouldn't have done so earlier if it had the chance, as envisaged by Kosciuszko? As for Austria-Hungary it was only abolished in 1848!

As for "Prussia and Austria also introduced compulsory schooling at the same time", that is not what I argued, my argument was based on the 1st ministry of education, on which you are in need of some enlightened yourself: 'The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth's Commission of National Education (Polish: Komisja Edukacji Narodowej) formed in 1773'

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Poland

Not until the implementation of the Prussian General Land Law of 1794 did the state first attempt to take responsibility for educational institutions. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system

As for Austria, it would certainly have been later. So no it was not at the same time Poland was at the vanguard.


That wasn't a march(:


begrudgingly i have to concede it.

Those various invasions were long time ago, during pre-Christendom era.

Root of Orientalism goes back to Roman Empire times. When people started to change their religions orientations from Paganism to Christianism (50-200 AD), this change in orientations from Rome to Jerusalem (based religion) was called orientalism. Much later, it was used for Ottoman Empire region.

No...they didn't equate Poland with "oriental"...that would be news to me too! :)

Paul Kriwaczek in his book Searching For Zarathustra quotes an Austrian saying that goes something like "The Orient begins at _____Strasse." This street (whose name escapes me) is on the Eastern outskirts of Vienna. As for Prussia/Germany many of its Orientalist critiques of Poland came from its chauvinist organizations such as the HAKAT. Even if they never specifically called Poles Orientals their denegrating characterizations of Poles used the same terminology that British and French Orientalists used when justifying their domination over Orientals. Poles, and Slavs in general, have portrayed as wild and irrational subhumans by Western Europeans for centuries, and this is a type of Orientalism. Many people on this forum object to Poland being called "Eastern European" because they buy into the Orientalist paradigm wherein the "East" is bad and the "West" is good.

That's the small but fine distinction... ;)

I can tell you an illiterate redneck as much as I want but I still wouldn't call you "oriental"....because "oriental" is not a slur...it's a geographical fact, not a social one and in the case of Poland a stupid one.

The "orient" is for a German somewhere far south...not our eastern neighbours.

Even modern Turks are sometimes called "Kanaks" in Germany or something if they are denigrated...but not "orientals".

Oriental literally means Eastern. When writers from a country, that is to the West of a country that their government is dominating, put their pens to use in dehumanizing the inhabitants of that Eastern country then that is type of Orientalism.

Nope...they are just taking the **** out of you! I never heard it called "Orientalism".

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism


What you are harping on about:


...is one little, fairly new aspect told by one man only. No need to make it a Weltanschauung, especially not a german one.

You are wrong. Orientalist attitudes towards Poland are a German tradition. Read Gunter Grass's Danzig Trilogy to find some or try Paweł Huelle's new book Castorp about which a reviewer wrote the following: "What gives Castorp its drive and resonance is his investigation of German attitudes to their Slav neighbours, towards whom they harboured an orientalising outlook that saw them, in contrast to German orderliness and rationality, as a force of disorder - and dangerous sexual attraction."

independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/castorp-by-pawel-huelle-trans-antonia-lloydjones-464233.html

Nobody denies arrogant or superior attitudes...they are just not anything "oriental"! They are just "arrogant" and or "superior".

Why do you feel the need to involve the Orient! ;)
No German thinks in any way "oriental" when it's about our eastern neighbours, just typically arrogant and superior, promised! ;)

Oh well...believe what you want....

Good, so now we have to horses pulling the same carriage, I hope the OP takes note(:


I am quite sure they didn't, but than again to my knowledge Poland didn't practice widow burning and cannibalism.

He won't accept the opinions of us lowlifes anyhow...we are not worthy! :)

I will second that, it's time the OP should reconsider his hypothesis.

Germans shared a *border* with the Poles for a 1000 years, it would be like calling themselves oriental.