The de-Germanization of the Nazis and the Holocaust, the increasingly German-less Holocaust in eastern Europe, and frequent allegations about "Polish death camps" are readily traceable to the unwritten 1960 gentlemens' agreement between Adenauer and Ben Gurion made in a NY hotel: you stop referring to Germans in your Holocaust narrative and we will bankroll Israel!
As a result, Poles have been increasingly portrayed as co-responsible for the Holocaust, thereby effectively diluting German guilt for their unmistakably German "Endlösung". That includes standard Holocaustspeak including "coming to terms with the past"-Vergangenheitsbewältigung in German). Somehow, rarely is anyone asked to "come to terms" with their past wrongs against Poles.
you stop referring to Germans in your Holocaust narrative and we will bankroll Israel!
Ah so you're one of those 'alt-right' types that believes the Jews own the media, I bet you'd knee before Trump's buddy Bannon and take the whole sausage
As a result, Poles have been increasignly portrayed as co-resposnible for the Holocaust
No they haven't
thereby effectively diluting German guilt
No, every with half a brain knows the Nazis were responsible for the Holocaust. There's no denying that some Poles also killed Jews, we know that as fact, but Poles also helped the most Jews get away from the Nazis too.
coming to terms with the past
Yaa, Germans know they are guilty and they have and are dealing with it.
rarely is anyone asked to "come to terms" with their past wrongs against Poles.
No, not true.
This thread is boring and pointless; it's a metaphor for your life
Poland has been trying to deflect her own complicity for years, Polonius! Although clearly the Germans aka Nazi government, spearheaded NOT by Hitler per se, but rather Heydrich, Eichmann and others within the latter's inner circle were the ones instrumental in setting the Holocaust machinery into active motion, the death camps in what is now Poland (then German-occupied territory) would never have worked as "efficiently" were it not for those local Poles aka non-Germans, along with many Ukrainians and Slovaks, for example, who did in fact collaborate with the Nazis.
There was to be certain a far more active resistance throughout Poland compared with in Germany at the time, nonetheless, Poland cannot be let off the hook quite so easily either:-)
Again, the Germans were instrumental in setting the gears of the death machinery in motion!
Only, there was sadly plenty of help from the Poles, maybe even as much collaboration as actual resistance.
Many Polish farmers DID indeed take in Jews for extended periods, only others, either did such for money/shaking down the poor wayfarers, or ended up turning the Jews in to the local gendarmerie, who in turn handed them over to the Germans-)
Clear cut the whole business ain't, that's for sure!!
Most of those Poles who sided with Nazis during WWII and collaborated against Jews, did it because of fear for their own lives and status in new reality created by Nazi occupiers. If Poland was stronger and if Poles were more numerous, non of this would happen, after all. If all those Poles and Slavs which were lost during era of slavery, when Jewish merchants very actively took part in hunt on Poles and Slavs, were able to contribute to Poland`s strength, Hitler maybe wouldn`t even think to attack Poland. When we think how much of those enslaved Slavs/Poles finished as Germanized (and Jewinized) we can even assume that, if era of slavery didn`t happen, neither would WWII happen.
So, its maybe time for Jews to think about their role in historical weakening of Poland.
You are conveniently forgetting the Jewish collabroators. The Jewish elders in the Judenrat facilitated and accelerated the holocaust by supplying the Germans with neat lists of Jews and their addresses so the Krauts knew exactly where to find them. And the Jewish ghetto police beat, kicked and otherwise mistreated their own compatriots far more brutally then the Nazis ever did. What does that prove? That during wars and other violent conflagrations sheer survival is the prime concern of most and turns people into beasts regardless of their nationality.
You are aware of the fact that the word German is rarely used in Holocaust narratives these days and is replaced by Nazi. With each generation of youth fewer and fewer will know exactly what a Nazi was and what nationality he represented.
Unlike Nazi puppet state Slovakia, the Ukrainian SS unit and a similar formation in Lithuania, there was no organised Polish Nazi military, paramilitary or politcial entity in German-occupied Poland.
the unwritten 1960 gentlemens' agreement between Adenauer and Ben Gurion made in a NY hotel: you stop referring to Germans in your Holocaust narrative and we will bankroll Israel!
Ah, what a surprise to see you blaming Jews for things that never happened. If you really care so much about this kind of thing, why not post it with your real name on it, perhaps on Facebook?
I am willing to "build bridges" of solidarity with Polish gentiles, always have been, always will be. Wonder though whether the reverse holds EQUALLY true:-)))
@Polonius,
The difference in your example is that the Kapos did what they did in order to survive, presumably NOT fueled by anti-Jewish hatred, empowered by the Nazis themselves!!
Unlike Nazi puppet state Slovakia, the Ukrainian SS unit and a similar formation in Lithuania, there was no organised Polish Nazi military, paramilitary or politcial entity in German-occupied Poland.
To the extent that that statement it true, it's largely because the senior Nazis (Hitler in particular) refused to allow such a thing. Hitler didn't trust Poles at all, a feeling that was proved accurate by the events with Schutzmannschaftsbataillon 107 and Polnisches Schutzmannschaftsbataillon 202. Instead those Poles who wanted to join up (whether to fight commies or to murder Jews) had to join German units (usually after signing the DVL and saying they were really German) or Ukrainian or Belorussian units, or one of the 'Poles who aren't Polish' units, such as the Goralenvolk SS unit.
Poland has been trying to deflect her own complicity for years,
There is nothing to deflect. Complicity? Take your head out of your own anus boy. That some degenerate talk, primitive, tribal and even then make no sense.
then German-occupied territory
Depended what area you're talking about. Some were on territory of the GG and some on the territories annexed by the III Reich. Geez what a great expert we have discovered in Lzyko lol!
Ah, what a surprise to see you blaming Jews for things that never happened. I
What Jews Harry? He wrote about Ben Gurion.
am willing to "build bridges"
Are you kidding? By perpetuating some strange myths build on trauma? In the same way you would view someone who would want to build bridges with Jews by saying - 'Jews all over the world conspired to take over this planet and rule it.. Hence there is too may of them finances, banking, media and in other key places.'
Now be a good boy Lzyko and confess. After you do that all is going be hunky-dory.
Grow up Lyzko!
To the extent that that statement it true,
What a tortured logic. Facts are either true or false. Fail!
So Ironside believes the Poles were guileless victims of Nazi terror and innocent of the wrong doing attributed to them and he asks ME to "grow up"??!!
That's the pot really calling the kettle black:-) I've heard of being in denial, but this is ridiculousLOL
I have seen GG translated as General Governorate, General Governorship, General Governance and General Government, probably from the French Gouvernement général. Which do you prefer?
The resurgence of "hurray for our side" tribalism seven decades after the war's end makes little sense, because there were no guileless victims. To a greater or lesser extent all were both victism and victrimisers. Poles wronged Poles, Germans and Jews, Jews wronged Jews, Germans and Poles, Germans wronged Jews, Poles and Germans... Re Poland, there were both the rigtheous Jew-savers and the szmalcownicy. Eact figures are impossibe to re-create at present.
[Polonius3] "You are aware of the fact that the word German is rarely used in Holocaust narratives these days and is replaced by Nazi. With each generation of youth fewer and fewer will know exactly what a Nazi was and what nationality he represented. "
To take your first part - that would be correct because not all Germans were Nazis and not all Nazis were Germans. Just like Communism, Nazism is an ideology not a country. There were Austrian Nazis, Ukrainian Nazis and Norwegian Nazis. Even Dutch Nazis and British Nazis - look up the volunteer Nazi regiments from various European countries. Look up William Joyce (a US-Irish British nazi active in WW2).
Taking your second part of the comment, today in the news a British nazi has just been imprisoned for killing a politician. He had a house full of nazi and SS literature. Last night on the news I watched a report on American nazis giving the nazi salute to Trump: theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/richard-spencer-speech-npi/508379/
There were many German anti-nazis in WW2. The communists, for example, the Scholls, the German jews themselves. All were as German as Hitler, but they were not Nazis. Similarly John Demjanjuk killed 28,060 jews in Sobibor, but he was not German.
So your logic is utterly flawed. Even the idea of National Socialism wasn't a German invention, as such politics were rife throughout Europe in the 1920s and 30s. Look up Oswald Mosely in Britain.
The reason we don't talk about the 'German' holocaust is because that is not correct. The holocaust could only have happened with the cooperation or lack of action of other states. The Slovakians even paid the Nazis to take their jews away. The Vatican even apologised for deliberate inaction during the Holocaust.
Needless to add, there were "good" Poles who often risked everything in order to help their Jewish neighbors, friends etc. There were also numerous "righteous" Germans such as Hans and Sophie Scholl, Kurt Huber and the rest of the White Rose who gave their lives in defense of decency and democratic values, no sour grapes here please!!!!
On the other hand, many a Pole was all too glad to hand over their Jewish fellow citizens into the hands of the Nazis. Sadly, a majority of Germans bought into Hitler's cruelty hook, line, and sinker, to the extent that ever after the War, many never even thought about what they'd done as necessarily cruel or inhuman, the truly frightening part:-)
A sizable number of Jews all too regrettably became turncoats and turned in their own as Kapos etc., a number of others, even began a "Judenrat" or "Jewish Council" to try to appease Hitler and, heaven forbid, cooperate with the enemy in order to save their own skin.
Sin is found on BOTH sides, let us be clear on this point! The motivation was doubtless not identical, the result was all too often the same.
Alhtough there were pro-Nazi or fascist organisations in many different countries, when we speak of Auschwitz, Sobibór,Majdanek, Treblinka and many others. they were not designed and operated by Father Tiso, Demjanjuk or Mosley but by Germans. You may be a graduate historian or history buff but most people are not, and constantly talking about "Polish concetrations camps, gas chambers and crematoria" is highly misleading to the uninformed public at large.
For 15 years after WW2 Poles were ranked amongst the many victims of the Third Reich. It was only after 1960 that things began to change, and Polish complicity was promoted for the first time. Initrially, Jews had preferred not to talk about that horrific tragedy, but now they realised money could be made on the Holocaust and what would later be called the "Holocaust industry" was born.Was it a mere coincidence that it all followed the historic Ben Gurion-Adenauer meeting in NY?
The death/extermination camps, a majority such as Auschwitz, Sobibór, Majdanek, along with sterilization or euthanasia centers, were present in Poland, though under GERMAN management and supervision, Poles or Ukrainians serving in an overwhelmingly lower-level capacity!! The Germans were the chief, indeed often SOLE, organizers and executants of those death factories along with the bulk of concentration camps.
Poland remained the killing field for Jews, much as Lithuania and Latvia. German staff however, Mengele, Clauberg, Wirth etc. were the ones exclusively in charge:-)
The death/extermination camps, a majority such as Auschwitz, Sobibór, Majdanek, along with sterilization or euthanasia centers, were present in Poland,
This hell will always hang over Poland, while the German conpanies that made the gas and used the slave labour continue to make huge profits, well at least Germany has come out of this smelling of roses, at least the Geman people wll be able to sleep at night knowing that all these problems are far away in Poland.
As for us we are left to tend and respect these places of the fallen, we do and will continue to do so.
Really??? German "guilt" (wina) over the Holocaust, yea Hitler to boot, far outweighs Polish misgivings over their partial complicity by an indescribable measure, dolno! Rest assured, Germans, especially over fifty, don't sleep easily either:-)
Germans, especially over fifty, don't sleep easily either:
In my own personal experience I have never seen this, If the subject amongst Germans was ever raised , it was quickly shut down with the blame put on the Nazis, of course you will not find any Geman who would admit any connection, It's as if the Nazis were some allien beings that came from outer space and had nothing to do with the German population at large.
you will not find any Geman who would admit any connection
That will largely depend on the age of the people you're talking to. I've found that the 50+ generation has no problem whatsoever to discuss the 1939-45 era, while the younger generations are simply sick and tired to be blamed for something that their great grandfathers did. Would you expect young Russians to feel guilty for Stalin crimes or discuss them ad infinitum? Of course not.
"You may be a graduate historian or history buff but most people are not, and constantly talking about "Polish concetrations camps, gas chambers and crematoria" is highly misleading to the uninformed public at large. "
I think you underestimate the public at large, from which I guess you mean foreign public. Let me tell you, virtually every day in Britain and the USA you can find documentaries on tv about nazis and WW2, and the holocaust. Then there are the numerous movies on frequent repeat. People are extremely well informed. If anything, what they are not told so much about is that it wasn't just Germans, but Austrians and Ukrainians etc running the camps and rounding up the Jews and making them dig the shooting pits.
This is why this strange law regarding the term 'Polish Death Camps' seems very odd from the outside - nobody imagines it was Polish policy, as everyone already knows about about the Polish govt in exile in London, the Polish RAF pilots, the Warsaw Uprising etc. To have such a law and a sensitivity almost seems like there is something to hide, as it looks suspiciously sensitive. There is an expression: 'the lady doth protest too much, methinks', and the law has backfired because it seems to be trying hard to stop people thinking something that they previously weren't but probably are now, because their attention has been brought to it. And nobody likes to be told how to use their own language (English), which makes them doubly suspicious. ('Polish death camps' doesn't necessarily mean 'death camps BELONGING to Poland', as everyone knows it means 'death camps IN Poland').
Of course, what very few people DO know about is the hundreds of thousands (millions? who knows) of German civilians who were expelled from their homes in western Poland, many of whom died or were murdered. The biggest untold story is possibly Lambinowice and people like Geborski. So when people use the term 'Polish Concentration Camp' maybe they'll be refering to that from now on, as it would seem to be within Kaczynski's law. So all he has done is bring greater attention to it.
sick and tired to be blamed for something that their great grandfathers did.
I agree, but it was the older buggers I have spent time with in Austria that had the problem, thing is as soon as they asked me about my history it would start the inevitable conversation about the war, the youngsters would just sit around the periphery and wonder why we would gibber on about the past (rightly so it is nothing to do with them)
I'd go even further, by adding that it largely depends on the PERSON as well. Society is still quite polarized on this subject and it's likely to stay that way for some time now:-)
Admittedly, the younger generation aka the children of the '68er generation are rather sick of the entire topic, as rabidly UNwilling as their now 70+ something parents were doggedly insistent on wrenching the truth out of THEIR mothers and fathers of the so-called "Taetergeneration"!
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