What was it like in 1989+ in Poland when the Soviet house of cards fell?

I'm not jealous of nuns. As an outsider I know what I don't know. All I'm saying is this whole process has no checks-and-balances(as far as I've read). And that, not the money,per se, is what's troubling for me. If this money is comming from the tax coffers, I, as a taxpayer, would be concerned.

So, what? Those who maintained it at the same time were gain from said properties, is not as if they were investing in them.And even if in they were (not that I believe that, last assume that for a sake of argument)it should be counted as an recompense for the rightful owners.

Example:
Somebody stole your car, and after two years you can get your car back, but then you are told that thief was taking a good care of your car and anyway he sold it. Would you say - ah thats all right let forget it? Maybe you would, but what if somebody stole your house and number of square meters of forest?


You still don't get it! That not your or anybody business what they will do with a property that should be rightfully theirs.


It is a pretty simple, read above!
I think that you are not comprehend that right, law and order can be only build and maintain on moral basics. Either Soviets had no right do to what they did or the commie law should be still enforced.

You cannot have it both ways because it suits you or because it is difficult. Every action has consequences - if you want to secure your property for your children, you should support the fundamental right - the right to own and inherit privet property.

Because in the future someone my question the right of you or your children to your property.


The present order is based on communism order, a way of thinking to set it on a Polish civilization is not revolution it is counterrevolution ! And yes I'm supporting counterrevolution!


You are funny, no offense! I think that is a pretty obvious who is a traitor or not.
You are Polish, you known exactly what I mean, it is not a question of somebody saying something, there are deeds which had been recored.

The money is coming from the taxpayer. In many cases, money that should be going to further the country has gone straight into the pockets of the RCC. Anyone who thinks that it's a good move for the country to give money to the RCC instead of spending it on education and suchlike...well.


So, your ideals of counterrevolution involve taking money away from the needy (schoolchildren) and giving it to the rich (the RCC)?

Wow. PO and especially Tusk would be proud.

So what? Are you saying those properties should not be returned to the owners or their heirs? Let them fail or burn it down or succeed; it's THEIRS to do whatever they wish.

In Lublin the best place to find wild (free-range ;) cannabis was near a bus stop right across the street from the regional police headquarters (Komenda Wojewódzka MO). Nobody paid any attention if you pulled out a couple of bushes. Some of it was pretty good too - about 1 out of 5, so you needed to pull out more just in case :)

Ironside, let us take your example made realistic. Your car (no insurance) has been quite damaged: Damaged wheels, paint, upholstery, engine. You were not there when it happened and you've been stuck abroad. Someone took that car, repaired everything on his cost and gave it to a poor family so they could use it. Now you return home and demand your car. You should get your car back but first return the money spent on the repair of your car, secondly explain the poor family they should start walking again for their shopping.

Big deal of industry and housing were severely damaged during the WWII. The Polish people and the Commie regime rebuilt that and started using that. Over 40 (more!) years have passed. Now, you want ignore all history and just RETURN the property to heirs of owners? Why heirs should get it back? And even if the should, where is the balance?

Example: A Warsaw house in Old Town had been razed down to the ground. The bricks to rebuild the house were brought from Breslau. The construction work was done by people. The rebuilt house was inhabited and maintained by some people for many years. Now, you want to return it to heirs of original owners?! So:

1. Pay the heirs of the construction workers their wages including interest rate. Do not forget about the scientists, artists, architects who contributed to the reconstruction

2. Pay the fee for heirs of Commies for managing the reconstruction
3. Pay the cost of bricks to heirs of original Breslau houses
4. Demand compensation from Germany for your attempt to reverse the history
5. And maybe charge the cost of rent for 40+ years to heirs of all tenants living in the house

Do you now understand you talk gibberish? How do you want to compensate all heirs of all Jewish inhabitants of Warsaw who lost their property and life in WWII? Are you willing to be moral and just to Jews, too?

Now, shall we return the Ziemie Zachodnie i Odzyskane to Germany, furthermore pay the cost of using their land? Will you demand Ukraine returns Wschodnia Małopolska to Poland? Will you relocate millions of people to reverse the course of history? This is goddam the same "moral & just" principle!

I'm not sure how the matter of the Wedel chocolate factory was settled with Wedels but that could be quite interesting if Wedels would be ready to pay for all machinery invested there since the end of WWII.


Ah... recollections, recollections... ;)

Really !


You are a dick ! There is a fundamental difference between getting monies for property confiscated by commies and former commies exploiting their privileged position to stole from the people.

But yes that is the spin to divert attention from thief's and crooks in a high places.


Taxpayers not only in Poland have no control over taxation process and spending those monies.
I think that is better to use some of those money to partially compensate for property stolen by the commies.
Sorry, rybnik, I did not mean to snap at you.
The fact is that monies is only a part of what the land is worth now. To give it all back instead of compensation would cost many times over than it does !

Traitor would be a better word. ;-)

When I think more, I believe Americans should make a huge moral & just campaign and demand that the US return all slaves back to the original redneck owners, and the traitors should be shot. Abraham Lincoln obviously got what he deserved for! Traitor such as Martin Luther King, too.

Because, thinking in Ironside's way, abolition of slavery was the theft of slaves from the South by the Union.

Sad irony.

Antek, stop exaggerating, you are not helping your case. Just shows your closet-commie soul. Nobody in his right mind would pay for a property value of TODAY, but percentage of an approximate value when it was taken away.

If you can remember it, surely the grass wasn't all that special :)

Come on, Alex! ;-))))))))))))))))))

A poor student can't be too demanding - however, this 1 out of 5 (2 out of 10, precisely speaking) - mmm... ;)

Hey, never turn down a freebie :)

What is approximate value of a damaged factory? Expressed in what money?
More: The act of abolition of slaves in the US was the act of the Congress, right? The act of nationalization was the act of Polish Sejm, communist or not. What makes these two acts different?

And, lady, I will not tolerate telling me anything about "closet-commie soul". What have you been doing 1982-1984?!

All property was used and were bringing income, is not as somebody restored it and was using for the benefit of the rightful owners.
Your equation is omitting a part were rightful owner were depraved of all the income from their property for 40 years - I would think that should cover all costs.


What are you talking about? what heirs? Are you an Holocaust denier ?These few heirs polish citizens - what made you think that I would differentiate according to ethnicity ?eh?lol

Your example:
They should ask me first about disposing of my car. Because they did not, it means they stolen it - why should I compensate thief?

Let say that would be an honest mistake, in that case I would consider compensate their investments after I would got my car back.
Sure, sometimes there it is impossible to return property in whole but that what a compensation is for.
Anyway return of the land to the rightful owners should be pretty straightforward.

Too many details ...

*Dzisus krajst, people, behave!!*


There are property experts who can determine that, don't you think? Not a rocket science.


I don't see the parallels. Or I don't care. Pick one.

We are going OT but let it be.

First, draw comparison between the US act of slave abolition and PRL act of nationalization. What makes those acts different? Some 200 years.
Secondly, explain how and to whom you would return the compensation for the Jewish property. To the State of Israel, maybe?

Bzibzioh, what about your past, 1982,-1984? I have never left Poland for more than 3 months, and you?

I can indulge you this time but I'm not going to justify myself anymore. I was living in Poland then.

Any anti-Communist activity that would excuse your "closet-commie soul" statement? Because I could go to jail for what I was doing in hope of free Poland?

Some people found it fit to "spierdolić z Kraju" in search of better future. This however does not give them any right to justify those who remained in the Old Country sharing their fates with Poland! Oooooh, "armchair patriots"...

And you stayed in Poland because...

Many reasons.

...because of my elderly parents, not mentioning I got married (baby involved, too). While me, my wife and daughter might attempt leaving the country, I was too grateful to my Mom and Dad and would not leave them.

.. because I was studying chemical engineering, doing my time in the Army, joining my first professional career where I learned a lot. Then, Free Poland appeared and I got all chances in the world I have been missing before.

So, you are family minded after all. I was hoping you weren't going to lie and claim patriotism as a reason. Good for you on that count.

Not in the sense I seek relationships with a broader family or I like family re-unions, no.

You see, Jola, I've been to many countries and seen a lot. Still, the air and soil smell too differently there. Call it patriotism if you like.

I like Real Ale and I like the English people, English food for example. Still, I could not live in UK.

In case of making a decision about emigration or restraining from it , using a word - "patriotism" is too lofty , I would use rather homesickness . It was in my case , I left Poland and returned coz I was homesick too much , but I am a great patriot and the decision to go to another country would not mean that I am not patriotic .

No worries Iron. You're obviously passionate regarding this topic :)

Lets get back to the topic of the thread.


I Know! (one of the many things I've learned on PF :) Where the f*ck was I??? I was in Wroclaw during the inception! Must've been studying hard(or drinking) ;) I think it was a great idea- so Polish don't you think?

Wrocław is very interesting city! It is so University oriented that it is very different from any other big city in Poland. The idea was very Polish, true. The news about the OA exploits were passed mouth to mouth, listened to on short-wave radios and read about in underground magazines. It think Serbian whistled out Milosevic driven by exactly that very example.

The ways of avoiding censorship were numerous. It is widely known that the lyrics of a Perfect song:
"Chcemy być sobą" (We want to be the true self)
were indeed:
"Chcemy bić ZOMO" (We want to beat law-enforcement police troops)

Or, the famous trick as described in the "Beats of Freedom" movie. The band Maanam was taken off the air because they didn't want to perform for Soviet commies. Marek Niedźwiedzki, leader of the hit list at the Polskie Radio 3, the hits being voted by a phone poll, replaced the Maanam song with a 30-second drum beat taken from that Maanam song. All Poland knew the trick, the censors were helpless.

Before any gig or concert, bands like KRYZYS (colleagues of mine and pioneers in Polish punk) had to present song list and lyrics to a censor. For that reason, they had to manipulate the lyrics to put innocent meaning; still, the audience could perfectly understand what the songs were about.

Yes I remember my first wife, Polka from Zielona Góra, along with her mom deciphering/de-coding songs, movies, articles etc for me. I remember them getting very excited and acheiving some level of satisfaction afterwards. It was a very powerful experience for this American. This may sound patronizing, maybe even a bit put-on, but I really did feel a sense of privilege to be witnessing this first-hand.

The travel situation is something that I'm really interested in - for example, the problems caused in 1990 after German unification with Poles suddenly having their free access to West Berlin cut.

spiegel.de/video/video-1070489.html

This video is well worth watching, even if you don't speak German. It's from 1990 in Frankfurt Oder.


Yep, just the technicalities. I'm wondering - because - I can't find any reference to Polish people abroad being given the right to vote in the elections, so I'm wondering if it was in force during PRL times. For instance - wouldn't loyal party cadre want to be seen to vote, especially if outside the socialist bloc?

The video is very interesting. Indeed, (AFAICR), Poles could access East Germany using their personal ID, at least for many years, and at least the inhabitants of the border zone. Since 1990, a passport with valid visa was required for a Pole to enter Germany. Getting the German visa (at least in Warsaw) meant long hours of waiting in queue, possibly for couple of days. The Queue Committee held a list of participants updated daily. If you missed putting your signature on given day, you had to start all over. In 1990, I was expected to go for scientific work to Duisburg. Technically, it would be a business visa, yet a clerk from our Institute had to attend the Queue Committee every day. Once, she lost her position by non-signing. My visa was jeopardized. Therefore I activated my superpowers ;-) (taught by golden survival rule "Always go to the TOP") and went directly to meet the German Cultural Attache. The Attache understood the problem instantly and I got my visa on the same day.

However, the German clerk wrote the visa start date: 10/7/1990 (10th of July, 1990) in unclear pen, and my return train ticket made according to the new Polish rule read: 1990-10-7 (7th of October, 1990) On my exit from Germany, the German border officer said: "Aha! You should have left Germany on 10th of July, you overstayed, now I got you!". Luckily, the older of the two men, a German conductor patted the other one on the shoulder and said in German: "Leave the man alone, you do not understand it".

Returning to the times before 1980s, Poles were technically allowed to countries of Warsaw Pact, and the luckier ones even to HEAR, HEAR! Yugoslavia! ;-) (Army officers could not travel farther than Yugoslavia during their whole life). Some lucky people having families in the West (like my family) had rare chance to travel there, only it was never guaranteed. It was a decision of a clerk if a given citizen could get the passport (and the Embassy of the other country had to issue the visa). Those lucky could buy as much as $50 for their whole travel ;-)

There were of course contractual workers travelling to say, Libya or Iraq. There were scientists, artists, writers that might get the permission to travel. Our guitarist Krzysztof Klenczon of Czerwone Gitary and Trzy Korony got such a chance. By playing for American Polonia, he earned enough to be able to buy a Gibson guitar... Lucky man! All above in this paragraph related to 1971 - 1980, the beginning and end of Edward Gierek era. Before Gierek, travelling to the West was hardly possible, from Solidarity times the situation got very complex and I am not a person to explain it.

Regarding voting - I don't know. There is so little historical material available on the Net! I was looking for lyrics of some Communist/Stalinist songs since I wanted to make some punk-rock parody of that. None to be found. Also, almost no pictorial material. As if those times had never happened... And the witnesses are slowly dying out, leaving space for "Seekers of the Truth" such as our young friend Żelaznoboki ;-)

Jola, I'm sure Delphi knows enough about Poland and what the communism was like. Have you ever read the book "Kamienne tablice" by Wojciech Żukrowski? That 1965 novel describes the life in Hungarian Embassy in India. Very interesting insight for people looking for traces of history. Zukrowski was a declared commie, yet you'll find a grain of truth in the novel. There are so many things I would like to know about the history that was the life when I was a baby, yet no historical facts are available really. I support Delphi's historical interest.

You have no chance for that, I'm afraid, unless you join the ranks of Żelaznoboki.


He's 25 and has been in Poland a couple of years only. He's not read one book in Polish, but plays a guru on this forum (with not one Polish moderator) on all things related to Poland. A neo-marxist with typical logical fallacies for arguments. He and a few others reduce this board to anti-Polish propaganda forum. Stick around, as you seem to halt his usual "discussions."

Haven't read the novel you mentioned and my reading at the moment are the excellent books by Ossendowski. Have a read through this article or take a ride on Grójecka 27 to see how the word anti-communist "hurts" some Varsovians.

wolnapolska.pl/index.php/item/27-maja-1876.html