Life in communism vs democracy in Poland

For me that fatman looks like some communist party lider.

On topic: as one who experienced both systems, in capitalism it is possible for someone who works his posterior off and enjoys at least a little luck to move from the lowest income brackets to a position of comparative affluence.

In comunism, it is pointles to even try.

In my opinion everything is determined now by family connections and not by you in capitalistic societies.I mean how far you will get is predetermined by heritage.

We left monarchy behind too btw..

Nowadays you can go to school, study and work your ass off for your success totally independent from your heritage as schools are open for all.

(Don't mind, "my mom get's welfare/my pop is an alki" is often heard by some as a kind of apology to neglect school, hang around with drug dealers and point to everybody else for them having no job - well, for others it's an additional motivation to not end like their parents, that's the freedom of choice you have in a capitalist society.)

What if you study and so on?Any rich or even middle class kid can buy his education.You will get the same qualifications at the end.But his will matter because he has the connections already.Middle class is saturated.There is no place for more members.

You are joking, ja? ;)

Someone recently told me that "there is no middle class" in Europe.
Not sure what he meant by that....

Idiotic Americans who think middle class means over 200000$ per year income.In Europe there is bigger social mobility than in the US because in the latter you can completely buy education.

However middle class has international connections when it sees its interests in danger in one place it intervenes to save them.Most of EU is middle class network between european countries.

It's much easier to be successful in the US than it is in Europe if you come from modest means. You don't need a degree in the US for starters, it helps, but it's not required. Employers can't take the same risks with a new hire in Europe as they can in the US. Making people easier to let go also makes it easier to take a chance on someone new. Either they can do the job, or they can't regardless of what the piece of paper says.

Here in Europe, you need the little piece of paper for all but the most basic of jobs. The universities churn out pieces of paper, and the quality of education suffers tremendously.

They don't hire so easily in America.You need to have college degree at least.And lots of other qualifications,recommendations etc.
In Europe it is a rigid system but you can have access to higher education without paying.

No you don't. I'm living proof of that. Of my successful friends, most of them don't have college degrees, they worked their way up.

In Europe, you do have to pay too. There are quite a few costs outside of tuition (which you have to pay for in a few countries as well..). Housing, food, transportation. You can't pay that without having some kind of income.

In the US, student loans are available, grants if you're low income, and you can always go to community college which is dirt cheap. If you want to go to university in the US, there are plenty of ways to make it happen.

Well in Germany you get support too when you don't come from a rich house, BAFÖG and Stipendium. I believe it's easier for a poor German to get a first class education than for a poor Ami.

More people go to Gymnasium and later study then ever before....and no, the Universities don't just "churn out papers".
They all have to work for it!

The new EU-university reform will lead to a streamlining of universities across the EU, meaning that you can get your degree in one country and get accepted with it later in the whole of Europe...how is that for mobility and chances!

ec.europa.eu/education/higher-education/doc1290_en.htm

That used to be true but it's not so much as it was. Things are tightening fast with the ascension of China. Real wages are down and you'll typically need some kind of higher education to get a decent job.

Isn't good old bafog just another loan? There are a couple of Bundeslander that are charging now too, it's only a matter of time until this goes up even more... How difficult is it if you're going to a Hauptschule and decide you want to go to Uni? Isn't it just a bunch of well off kids in Gymnasium in Germany? The Pisa findings make it pretty obvious that if you come from a low income background, you're probably not going to university either

pisa.ipn.uni-kiel.de/PISA2003_E_Zusammenfassung.pdf

doch net so einfach...

As a percentage of the population, the US has 50% more graduates than Germany.


It's only going to get worse. The world got competitive all of a sudden.

Maybe the public US highschools have a lower standard that makes graduation easier than in Germany?

Hauptschule is mainly for those who don't plan to go to the Gymnasium later anyhow..
When you later change your outlook you have to work harder.

And no, not only a "bunch of well off kids" goes to the Gymnasium (it is free you know) ;)
They decide after your notes if you get a place....


Pisa has more to do with the quality of teaching than the potential of the pupils...now Saxony in the East is better than former western primus Bavaria, the chancellor of Germany is from eastern Background...neither can show off especially rich families or great, old, far reaching connections!


The grades in german universities will in the course of the Bologna process streamlined and now also called Bachelor and Masters.

And yes, a Bachelor is much easier to get....in Germany a grade count not much below a Master.
There are alot of protests.....as Germany for centuries prided itself on their hard to get higher grades especially the Meister certificate which counts alot here (and which you can only get after a good education with a successful grade, lots of experiences in several firms and then a tough exam at the Handelskammer.

What is the US' equivalent?

That's post secondary graduates

What is your definition of success? Big house, big car, pile of money in bank, beautiful wfe? Houses are lost in divorce. Cars are become old. Money is lost to inflation. Beautiful wife will go to richer guy. What is success? You're following capitalism's definition of success, which leads you to work, and never find success. Each and every one of you should define your own success. Don't let someone else define it for you. Indeed, don't let a system that wants only your labor to define it for you.

For me personally? Being able to do what I like and earning more than only the most necessary.
Therefore having a modest living standard and still having fun at and with my work.

I think there is not much worse than to spend your whole week in a job you hate for some scraps!
That's why hard work in school and uni is so important, then you get to choose...or else you have to take the leftovers...if you are lucky!

And once you like what you do for a living life is good (or at least will never be THAT bad)! ;)

One millionaire I met said he was lucky to have found something he likes doing to make money at. That was his definition of success. Be careful in what you choose as success; you may very well get it.

Nope...I don't think so...chosing your job just for money doesn't make you happy!

I think BB summed it up nicely. A little financial security goes a long way.

So, are you going to answer your own question?

Be careful, YOU may change. Your definition may be what you chose 10 yrs prior. My definition of success would be Bratwurst Boy's, namely, to be happy with what you do. It's easy to get up and work 24/7 at what your like. I've learned something else from a passerby in life that I think is important: don't compare yourself with others, only yourself. Set your own standards. Make them realistic. Be true to yourself as Shakespeare would say. Be your own taskmaster.

You're following capitalism's definition of success, which leads you to work, and never find success. Each and every one of you should define your own success. Don't let someone else define it for you. Indeed, don't let a system that wants only your labor to define it for you.

A lot of people will blow this off as a socialist's rant. Not me. I've chased money (and found it on occasion) .. it doesn't make you that happy. Women will just prey on you basically, lol. It's fun in your 20's not your 30 - 40's.

You know what makes me happy in general? Learning things, new experiences.

Pisa does however look into socioeconomic background of students. It's not that favorable to Germany.

If you graduate in the US, hell, even if you don't graduate, you can go to college as long as you you're test scores are in line. Student loans and Pell grants are readily available for people from low incomes, my brother is going to school on a Pell grant as we speak. If you managed to screw up in highschool, it's simply a choice if you want to correct that or not. You said it yourself, you have to work a lot harder in Germany if you were already moved to a non university track when you were 13 years old.

Add in a reasonably happy, stable family life. The little experiment where you get to raise a couple of well adjusted kids...

If you graduate in the US, hell, even if you don't graduate, you can go to college as long as you you're test scores are in line.

basically true.

Money isn't everything, but it does make things a hell of a lot easier. Putting money in your pocket while doing something that you love is the point of those options.

I don't count Pisa fully if I'm honest...look at those Länder who are the worst...it's those with the most arab/turkish immigrant kids as in Berlin for example.

PS: There was another study in the mean time
pisa.ipn.uni-kiel.de/Zusfsg_PISA2006_national.pdf


The first PISA study was a shock though....but Germany reacted and now it looks much better!


That is true though...but actually I fail to see the disadvantage.
Not everybody belongs into a gymnasium/university...

How much worth is a high grade if EVERYBODY gets one???

They are the smarties and the dumbies....if both can get easily a bachelor how much worth
is this bachelor?

And what about the US practice to suffer sport students who are only "working" in the sport teams of the Uni and still get their grades??? ;)

That is impossible in Germany!

Not if it puts you in an early grave. I can tell you're young. "Big money" isn't really all that attainable. But good luck to you if you want to go for it. Don't lose your soul in the process.

Hey Youngsters above...it's so cute to read your noble posts, but believe me, at the end of the day money is what matters. The noble happiness without it just does not work in the real life. Are you back in the 18 century romanticism? It's great to hear a serenade played in front of my windows, but it f**n does not pay the bills.