Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations?

This issues are inextricable.

No, those issues are separated. If somebody's descendant want regain his granny's or father's property that one issue.
If some group claiming to be representation of Jews demands monies for the property which never was theirs or their ancestors in the-first place,that different issue I call it thievery.

Actually they should be prosecuted for attempted extroversion.

We covered this several pages ago, in case you'd forgotten. Some resident of a house they never paid for should not be allowed to profit from the holocaust. If anyone has title to it, it is the Jewish community.

archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/8/91958.shtml

The Jewish organizations pestering Poland never paid for that house either.

Intestate members of their community did.

So what? Judaism is a religion and in all sane parts of the world if a property owner is dead, with no heirs, the property does not become the possession of organizations formed out of the former owner's co-religionists.

Now look carefully at the thread title. It doesn't mention Judaism at all. We are discussing Polish Jews, a cohesive community and distinct ethnicity. Jews were murdered because of their ethnicity - their race, according to those who killed them - and that ethnicity (including people who practise Judaism and people who don't) forms a distinct community who are perfectly entitled to file a claim.

And that would be following which planet laws? Planet "we-make-claims-and-laws-as-we-feel-like-it"?

It's plain and simply an extortion.

We already know about Jews being murdered. But what does that have to do with this issue?

These people can make a claim but they should do it individually and not bring a political organization into the matter which I'm sure didn't have its name on any of the property titles. Also if will they be required to pay for the upkeep and past taxes on the property?

Do Polish Jews identify themselves first as being Polish or Jewish?

Also can Palestinians bring claims against Jews who now live in their property?

Polish.

And they're certainly more Polish than you'll ever be.

Really? Every single one of them? LOL

Well you are right actually. I am not Polish. I am American.

But if I was a citizen of Poland and I had a problem with the Polish government, I certainly would not disrespect the Polish government and Polish people by having foreign political entities intervene on my behalf against the Polish goverment, like Polish Jews are.

International Jewish groups went after Switzerland for money Jews felt were due individual Jews, only to have a small amount of the money actually end up going to the individual Jews they said they were working on behalf of. Most of the money stayed in the treasury and bank accounts of those Jewish political groups that went after the Swiss.

Nobody wants to see a repeat of this.

The clue is in the name "Polish". And yes, every single one of them.


Unbelievably racist accusation, that. It's the same old tired nonsense that was trotted out in the 1930's and late 1960's - we've heard it all before, and funnily enough, it tends to be spouted by those who have some sort of racial agenda.

Then again MediaWatch, if you care about so much about Poland, why not hop on a plane and make a difference? I need some American volunteers in Summer - between July 2nd to July 27th. What about it? I'll even sort you out with accommodation and meals.

Oh, I forget...you're an internet "defender".

Just like every single Russian Jew was Russian and considered by Russians to be good Russians?


Wow you sound paranoid.

So its racist to prevent another Swiss Bank situation, where International Jewish groups went after Swiss banks for money that Jewish victims felt were owed them, only to have these Jewish groups pocket most of the Jewish victims' money? This is what the Jewish victims reported, not me.

Did these Jewish victims have a racist agenda for reporting this?

So at the end of the day, you have no problem with big special interest political organizations getting money that is due individuals instead of those individuals getting the money? That's not nice :(


Sounds good!

Delph give me your address and phone number and I'll meet you on July 2nd.

Maybe you and I can have some drinks and have a little chit chat on some things.

:)


Not sure what you mean by that, but I do defend against anti-Polish lies and slander on the internet.

Three mentions of Russians in a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with Russia. Obsessed.


Excellent - I'll pass you the details of the programme director in the USA. She'll tell you all you need to know - just tell her you'd like to be sent to Poznan.

I'm sure you'll be delighted to teach poor Polish nursery children.


You mean you push a dodgy right wing agenda down people's throats.

As I've said countless times - Poland doesn't need defended by Americans.

I cannot believe you are so naive that in a thread about WW2 in a forum about Poland you have to ask that question.


I imagine that could be deducted from a notional back rent.


Again, extreme naivete if you imagine (or something worse if you only pretend to imagine) that made the slightest difference to someone's WW2 fate.

Where in my simple question "Do Polish Jews first identify themselves as Polish or Jewish?" do you think I'm really asking about someone's fate in WW2 or "pretending to imagine something worse?

If I wanted to know about somebody's fate in WW2 or something else, I would have asked a question about that. There is no trick question here. Stop being paranoid.

Why don't you just answer my question? Its a simple question.


I ask about why you keep bringing up the murder of the Jews because it has nothing to do with the status of who pays for these properties today in reference to the innocent Polish taxpayers today who could be on the hook for them. If anything, those homes and the homes of Poles were destroyed or taken because of what Berlin or Moscow did in Poland, not because of what today's Poland's taxpayers (who would have to pay for these homes if Jewish groups get their way) did about these properties. So why don't you ask those countries about reparations? When will Poland get reparation for all the land and property it lost which was a result of Berlin and Moscow? Or does that concern you at all?

Jews or Poles should individually follow the proper procedures in getting restitution for these properties. If they were destroyed in the war, all construction costs, maintenance costs and past taxes should be payed on them. But frankly speaking, people seeking money for these properties, should first go after the countries that caused this situation for compensation. That is the only fair thing to do.


I reference Russia because Russia has a lot to do with Poland and Poland's history.

Moscow/Russia is not some obscure country on the other side of the world when it comes to Poland and Poland's history. Its intertwined with Poland's history. Heck it owned Poland more then the Polish people did since 1795.

Read the whole thread very carefully.


Look at the thread title.


Why would the 'innocent Polish taxpayers' (of which, by the way, I am one and you are not) be 'on the hook' in the matter of returning property to a community?


That is a whole different issue, though you may want to check out the ziemia odzyskana.


And nobody is suggesting otherwise. There will be restitution.

What?! We're not even allowed to be extroverts anymore? Why the special treatment for introverts?

Hopefully the restitution will go directly to individual Polish and Jewish property owners (who have throroughly verified their claims) and not to some special interest group.

Hopefully innocent Polish taxpayers will not have to pay a dime for this and the restitution money comes from Berlin and Moscow who were the ones who created this situation.

Unbelievably inaccurate and dishonest accusation- just post facts to disprove his claims or shut the hell up. Nobody is being convinced of anything except that you're shooting blanks when you retaliate with name calling and the "racist card." Prove him wrong or state your opinion on the matter but to cry "racist" when no mention of race even appeared really does a disservice to the discussion.


Here's one chain of events that kind of thinking has led to in the past: individuals' claims become community claims which then becomes a contest a community(x) vs individuals which then forces the individuals to form a community(y) which then turns into a battle of communities- war. I'm not saying that's the ONLY way it could go but that's a direction things have gone in the past.

You've taken this weird stance on the matter that anyone identifying themselves as being Jewish is entitled whatever it is which they make a claim to in Poland (or anywhere else for that matter). In your argument you've estimated that no abuse or misrepresentation can exist on those seeking property. Why wouldn't there be? It's such ridiculous logical inconsistencies and gaps in your statements makes your posts seem very biased and unbalanced. You and delph have both thrown out the racist card (yours more veiled) despite no race being discussed, it seems that when one makes a point of hypocrisy coming from this particular group of people, such claims are the norm and not the exception.


It seems that way, I would like to see a rational rebuttal to this interpretation but it hasn't come.

Or look more recently to leaving Africa and India. If Africa asked the queen for the diamonds back or India asked for their gold back, I'd have to laugh at their gall, as guilty as the old Empire is of flagrant theft. I guess American Jews aren't funding Israel as much as they used to. They're not able to fund the nuclear and chemical arms programs without external donations.

You do realise that in Poland, the RCC has already thoroughly robbed Poland blind?


Alas, precedent is such that we've already paid out billions to the RCC.

I wish a line was drawn under this chuffin' thread.

1. Reclaiming their stolen property is not a robbery. Unlike individual Jews, CC is an institution with continuity.

2. You are changing the topic. It looks like you have no arguments to support your point.


WE? You, British sponger, paid not even penny. It's just silly how you pretend you have a dog in this race.

Let me ask this from the Jewish contingent on PF.
If Poland agrees to pay the reparation to the Jews that can proof they or their family own property, what price is fair the 1939 -1945 value or 2012 value ?

The 2012 value. It's in line with precedent - the RCC has been robbing Poland blind of the 2012 values (and much more) - so why not everyone else?


What Jewish contingent?


Obtaining tens of millions for individual properties as well as the return of the properties is daylight robbery. You're not here - you're not the one who sees his tax money going to subsidise fat wealthy priests and their opulent lifestyles rather than poor children/homeless/etc.


When was the last time you paid tax in Poland? I pay every single month - and a good bit of it, too. You - on the other hand - only contribute to Canadian excise taxes.


Moscow and Berlin didn't pay for the RCC's thefts, so why should they pay now?

So reclaiming property unlawfully stolen by the state from established and still existing institution is "daylight robbery". Claiming rights to property when owners died without heirs is perfectly fine in your estimation. The height of liberal bias. Or rather fake poster to sir up the pot and generate fake controversy.


Last year: I still own property in Poland.

Still keen on taking thread off topic, eh?

Of course he/she meant extortion (Extortion, also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction is a criminal offence which occurs when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person(s), entity, or institution, through coercion.) Definitely we have it here regarding 'summary' payment requests.

But someone mentioned that this is for individual claims. In such case there is no issue (17 pages of polemics about nothing, isn't it funny), Poland already has laws regarding individual properties. Actually my friend told me about how he got his house back in mid 90s (more than 15 years ago). His family (Polish Catholic) was extremely well of and owned several buildings in pre-war Warsaw. The family left Poland in September '39 and never returned after the war (very smart decision avoiding sure prosecution by (very likely) Mr. Michnik's brother, and after one day trial death penalty...). Anyway my friend explained the laws this way: a property owner can receive the property back, if 1. the building is still standing (no claims to lots), and 2. the building is in government hands (if it was sold to private owner, who purchased it in good faith according to current laws, it's final). Out of all possessions only one building that my friend's family owned in pre-war Warsaw qualified and sure enough it was returned to him after few months court case. Since at that time he lived in the US he sold it to family still living in Poland. Case closed. And as I said it was mid 90's.

So now we are back to 'summary' requests by Jewish organizations. It would help to include some numbers into Swiss situation, which as somebody previously mentioned is very similar. The initial claims were for Jewish money held in Swiss banks illegally after WWII and the amount mentioned was 'in excess of 10 billion dollars.' The Swiss questioned the amount. An independent auditing of bank's books was ordered and the Swiss appropriated 500 million dollars for the audit. Before the results of this audit was even publish the Jewish organizations started attacking the audit as not-fair, wrong, etc despite having a large number of Jews performing the audit (along with some Swiss of course). Hastily a 'summary' agreement was reached to pay Jewish organizations 1.25 billion dollars and the sum was paid. How were the money spent is not a subject of this thread.

The results of the audit? In all Swiss banks 140 million dollars were found that could be traced to Jewish property.
So let's stop this discussion about nothing.

Why not 2009 value it was worth more them