Was the holocaust by Germans in Poland the worse genocide in history?

No, a fact confirmed by historical record, eyewitness testimony and court verdicts. Certain people can deny the facts as much as they want, they won't change the reality. All they do is make Poland look bad. Lying about history is never a good idea.


Sawoniuk was born a Polish citizen in Poland to an ethnically Polish mother and (according to local rumour) a Polish Jewish father, who grew up identifying himself as ethnically Polish, joined the Polish police, joined the Polish army during WWII and then lived in England where he identified himself as a Polish patriot. Pity you can't deal with the fact he was a Pole. He'd never have become British if the truth about his actions in Poland had been known.

You originally gave the name as Selenium and then edited this to say Sawoniuk? Why? Who is Selenium? What is your agenda? Who is feeding you this information, the Director of the FBI? LOL!


Ah, but he was a British citizen. A British citizen convicted of carrying out war crimes in Poland.

Why don't you feel any collective guilty about what your fellow Brit did Harry?

Is historical record mentioning this name in two ways Selenium and Sawoniuk?

Bieganski, instead of attempting to insult people and talking about the citizenship Sawoniuk gained by lying about his actions in his native Poland during the holocaust, perhaps you'd cater to address the fact that Polish men such as Sawoniuk and Hajda conclusively demonstrate that Comey's actual statement was correct, i.e. some Poles did take part in the holocaust?

Vox, afraid it is you who are confused! Poland had NO puppet government during the Nazi period, and well into her occupation! She also had a strong Jewish as well as gentile resistance movement, similar to the Weisse Rose in Germany and the individual resistance movements in Denmark and Norway! Poland to be sure had plenty of Nazi sympathizers, not to mention her share of anti-Semites!

The Holocaust however was masterminded by the Nazis, specifically messrs. Heydrich, Himmler and Eichmann! These are historical realities which cannot be erased by wishful thinking:-)

Man if he runs a portion if the fbi and this is his deluded opinion I don't have much hope of him catching crooks and terrorists in the usa. Wonder which jewish extremist organization paid him for that article?

quote by Brunensis


quote by jon357


Why jon? The thread is: Was the holocaust by Germans in Poland the worse genocide in history ?
None of your last six posts in this thread have anything to do with the thread title while Brunensis's post is spot on.

Brunensis is correct as the correct answer is "No", the Germans came in third on the all time list.
Number one was Mao of China and number two was Stalin.

Mao Zedong
With over 63 million deaths being linked to Mao Zedong, the genocide is like killing all the people
in the United Kingdom in a single setting.
Can you imagine that ?

Comey is flat out wrong. His falsification regarding Poland and The Holocaust has created a diplomatic incident. At least the US ambassador (unlike you) is now onboard with general Polish sentiment and the official Polish government position on this matter.

As for Sawoniuk he was raised in a town with a majority Jewish population. Other groups in his town such as Ukrainians, Belarusians and even Germans were the minority. His full name was Andrei Andreeovich Sawoniuk. Beside the fact that his surname is not Polish his personal use of a patronymic also demonstrates a Belarusian/Ukrainian/Russian heritage. Ethnic Poles have never used such naming conventions. Having been born in a region of the world with often shifting borders and rule by ethnically and linguistically different foreign powers one's heritage and self-identification was all the more important to preserve. Indeed, just because a local person was living in Russian controlled territory one day which the next day became German territory doesn't mean that identities immediately changed with it. It would take years for locals to have their identification paperwork updated (assuming they had no problem being governed by yet another foreign power) as well as learn the new language and customs of the occupying power. Again, most locals chose to preserve their own language, heritage and identity regardless of who was ruling over them.

I can't find anything showing that Sawoniuk (a wretchedly poor peasant) even spoke or wrote in Polish but if he did then I'm willing to admit that it would certainly be a lot more than you can but this still wouldn't make him ethnically Polish or confer Polish citizenship on him.

There is no disputing that Sawoniuk was a British citizen. And don't suddenly and conveniently forget that you have built a reputation over many years on PF making it abundantly clear to Polonia ("plastic Poles" has been your preferred term of abuse) that any Pole who leaves Poland and settles in another country is no longer Polish. Your fellow carpetbaggers have always enthusiastically backed you up on this. Very well then. Using your own criteria then you know full well that Sawoniuk could never have been Polish anyway since he was in fact British and had the British paperwork to prove it.

British citizen Sawoniuk was convicted of war crimes he committed in Poland while she was occupied by the Nazis.

As for Hajda he too immigrated after the war. He was never charged or convicted of committing an actual war crime. There were only suspicions that he was a guard at a labor camp but he denied this. He was stripped of his US citizenship anyway but still never deported. So he is stateless. As I asked in an early post, if he committed war crimes then why hasn't the US charged him for this rather than making it a technical matter of the US authorities claiming he didn't disclose some alleged status on his immigration paperwork? Why try to deport him rather than keep him in country so he can be tried for war crimes and a conviction easily obtained so he can be sent prison? Why does no other country want him and why is no other country seeking to put him on trial for anything?

So what does all of this tell you? It means that the Sawoniuk and Hajda cases conclusively demonstrate your absurd pretzel logic as you try in vain to link Poland as being a guilty party in The Holocaust.

You failed again.

But you are not interested in facts anyway simply because they stand in the way of your malicious agenda to falsely discredit Poland and Poles.

Not sure about the reliability of the source below, but the British might be a contender, too:

larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2013/eirv40n24-20130614/40-42_4024.pdf

@The Other, you are very right to be wary of Lyndon Larouche as a source for anything except insane ravings.

When Comey stated that some Poles took part in the holocaust, he was being completely accurate. It's good that you bring up Ambassador Mull, he's being an excellent example of what a diplomat should be. His exact words were "Suggestions that Poland, or any other country apart from the Nazi Germany was responsible for the Holocaust are wrong, harmful and offensive"

aol.com/article/2015/04/20/poland-summons-u-s-ambassador-over-fbi-heads-holocaust-remarks/21174065
Note that Comey did not say that Poland was responsible for the holocaust, and he'd have been completely wrong if he did. So Mull is describing a statement that Comey didn't make as being "wrong, harmful and offensive" but people who don't read what Mull says will conclude that Mull says Comey's comments were "wrong, harmful and offensive". Nicely played, Mr Ambassador.


You're more than welcome to inspect Sawoniuk's Polish army record. In it you will find a statement which was made, according to the Polish army officer who recorded it, by Sawoniuk regarding his membership of the SS and was made in Polish. You can also inspect the court records and read the testimony of the witnesses at the trial who heard various members of the killing squad at the Domachevo massacre speaking German and Polish.

But even if you were right, that wouldn't change the fact that Sawoniuk was ethnically Polish and a Polish citizen. The fact that he was born in Poland to a Polish mother and an unknown father makes him a Polish citizen. The European Court of Human Rights confirms that Sawoniuk was a Pole. On what do you base a claim that European Court of Human Rights is wrong and that Sawoniuk wasn't a Pole?


Ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk was not British when he participated in the holocaust, he was an ethnically Polish Polish citizen. Ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk obtained British citizenship only by lying about his murderous actions while in his native Poland. If ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk had told the truth about his participation in the holocaust, he would never have been granted British citizenship, but of course he would still have remained a Pole.


Ethnically Polish Polish citizen Hajda may have denied being a guard at Treblinka (and the Trawniki camp), but five of his fellow guards at Treblinka said that he was and US district judge David H. Coar ruled that he was. Hajda appealed but circuit judges Easterbrook, Manion, and Evans ruled against him. And his fellow guards at Treblinka accused him of being more than just a guard: according to them he participated in the mass murder (by shooting) of prisoners. I wonder why you seek to defend Hajda by lying about what he was suspected of doing.


Which US law had ethnically Polish Polish citizen Hajda broken by participating in the holocaust in his native Poland while a Polish citizen?


As The Associated Press pointed out "Bronislaw Hajda, died in Schiller Park, Illinois, in 2005 at age 80. He was ordered deported to his native Poland or Germany in 1998, and his appeals process ended in 2001. But both countries repeatedly refused to accept him, authorities said." nydailynews.com/news/national/queens-ex-nazi-nyc-article-1.1412796


Why didn't Poland want to put ethnically Polish former Polish citizen Hajda on trial? Good question. Could it be that some people simply didn't want to put on trial a Pole who had participated in the holocaust because some people want to maintain the myth that no Pole participated in the holocaust and they were willing to see a mass murderer go free in order to protect their fantasy?


I'd ask you to quote me saying that, but we both know that the statement is just another of your lies. Poland is certainly not a guilty party in the holocaust and I am more than happy to point out that fact to anybody who claims it is. However, the simple fact is that some Poles most certainly did take part in the holocaust, and no amount of lying, excusing or defending by anybody will ever change that fact.

Some Jews took part in Holocaust too(Judenrat in ghettos), there were also Jews helping both Germans and Soviets with killing Poles. Why Comey didn't mention them next to Poles and Germans helping unidentified murderers?

Some Jews most certainly did take part in the holocaust; although only being a member of a Judenrat is not necessarily a sign that a person took part in the holocaust, for example Warsaw Judenrat chairman Adam Czerniakow committed suicide after failing to stop deportations, Dr. Joseph Parnes, chairman of the Lwow Judenrat, was murdered by the Nazis for refusing to hand over Jews who were to be sent to a labour camp; and then at the other end of the Judenrat scale are the likes of Rumkowski, who asked for children to be surrendered by their parents for "sacrifice".


Presumably because Germans and Poles and Hungarians and others who took part in the holocaust could be Jewish or Catholic or Muslim etc.

The difference here, Harry & TheOther, is that the Jews were forced into concilliating with the enemy! They were fueled by fear and survival. What fueled those collaborationist Poles and others??? Primitive anti-Semitism, "fear" that the Jewish blood-libel myth was true!

There's no comparison.

Of course Poles didn't have to fear death under German occupation.

LOL

You are wrong as usual Lyzko, the Jews who joined the Ghetto Police volunteered. Nobody put the gun to their heads and made them do it.


You mean to say that you don't know? Pry name more than ten of those alleged Polish collaborationists? Can you do it? Maybe you are just writing about things you know very little about and which for the most part are based on rumors and myths?


Really? Do you know that for a fact or maybe you are just guessing basing your "opinion" on rumors and a general prejudice?

Educate yourself:
The Massacre in Jedwabne, July 10, 1941: Before, During, After - Marek Jan Chodakiewicz
After the Holocaust: Polish-Jewish Conflict in the Wake of World War II (East European Monograph)


- available on line.

Yeah, just checked the main web site and that guy seems to be deranged. Sorry for that. I've heard about the so-called genocide in British India a few times already, but unfortunately there are hardly any web sites that cover that topic.


Why are you addressing me here, Lyzko? Did I miss something?

Vox, again, the Jews who joined the Sonderkommando, the Kapos and the Ghetto Brigades (not to mention the Judenraete) did so in order to survive! The analogy is not appropriate. The Jews were not all angels, neither were the majority of Germans, need we omit here, that virulently anti-Semitic epicenter of Poles.

There were good and bad on both sides of the fence! However, the war against the Jews was not one which the Jews waged against themselves.

You and that chap Irving ought to sit down and have a historical relativism contest. You'd both come in tiedLOL

Pure rubbish Lyzko, volunteering to the Ghetto Police wasn't perquisite for survival.


The war against the Jews was not waged by the Poles and yet you are coming here with your virulent prejudice and unlearned "views" and readily are slandering all Poles for few bad apples. A measure you are refusing to apply equally to all bad apples regardless of their ethnicity. It is an unabashed racism and your words about good and bad on both sides are derived of meaning in the light of your conduct.


It was uncalled-for, such a churlish insult says more about you than about me. I know now with whom I'm dealing with.

So we're blaming the Jews for being victims of their own making then, is that it? I think there's a difference between doing someone else's dirty work or risk being rounded up and executed compared with initiating the dirty work and rounding up innocents who never did anyone anything special, except happen to be Jewish.

Had the situation been reversed and it had been the Jews who'd been in power in German under different circumstances naturally, would the same argument apply??

You're simply reiterating double standard logic, that's all.

Well, yes it's true, poor management and over taxation from British rule during drought seasons caused the deaths of millions of people, there is no denying it. Now is it genocide, I'll leave that to you to decide.

It still was not the systematic destruction of a peoples like what you seen during the holocaust. So to me, it is not a contender. Maybe someone here knows more about it, I just know the basic outline.

Well we Poles have a very strong stance on treason and paranoia exploded in 1939 after the defeat, blame was being looked for and Jews voulnteering en-masse to the red flag in the east, Ukrainians deserting and Germans settled in Poland fighting regular Polish soldiers. Don't tell me it's all fiction now?

He did blame the Polish Jews for the Holocaust, thats the insult, he blamed the victims.

Apportioning guilt/victimhood based on religion is falling into the Nazi trap.

He provided no names and not even a quantity of people. Obviously an accusation devoid of facts and evidence which slanders Poland is "completely accurate" enough as far as you are concerned.


Of course he did. He mentioned Poland only once in his sicking article and when he did he deliberately and erroneously included Poland's name right in the middle of two Axis countries in some wildly fictitious rank order placing Poland right after Nazi Germany. He never anywhere talked about "victims and heroes" when he referred to Poland but only "murderers and accomplices [who] convinced themselves it was the right thing to do."


Three very important facts which you conveniently failed to mention:

1) Regarding his ethnic affiliation...

"...[Sawoniuk]had retreated with the German forces when they were pushed out of the region by the Russian counter-offensive, and that he quickly became a member of the Belorussian unit of the SS."

2) Regarding where he reportedly joined the Polish Army...

"And it was in France where Sawoniuk turned up and joined the Free Polish Army, telling them that he had been a member of the SS."

3) How the British judge at his trial in Britain for war crimes ruled regarding the credibility of British citizen Sawoniuk's purported Polish Army record....

"...his Polish army record, ...was...inadmissible."

Source: research.gold.ac.uk/1988/1/SOC_Hirsh_2001a.pdf


I've showed you over and over that Sawoniuk was never Polish. Not Polish by his name. Not Polish by the region he grew up in. Not Polish by the Belarusian unit of the SS he joined. Even this so-called Polish Army record you brought up to support your argument on here wasn't trusted in your own British courts.


For the third time now, the Americans couldn't even put him on trial for war crimes. They charged him over an immigration matter instead. And face it, this is in America which has a very long history of convicting its citizens on trumped up charges and yet still there was nothing there to justify a war crimes charge against Hajda. But then again America is decidedly not a party to the International Criminal Court so they obviously didn't want to set any sort of precedence and were hoping some other country would jump at the chance to charge Hajda. But no country bothered. There is nothing there. And on top of this, just look at the totally farcical handling of Demjanjuk over the decades. He was always charged, always found guilty but in the end he always had his convictions overturned or annulled. Demjanjuk died a free man and legally innocent.

Indeed, why should someone like Hajda even face a trial (lack of evidence aside) when there are thousands upon thousands, yeah millions, of other German military veterans and civilians who served the Third Reich and were directly instrumental in The Holocaust but were never charged and never convicted and instead lived a full life and died peacefully of old age?

Vox, you make it seem as if the Jews volunteered out of willingness. This is clearly not so. While there are bad apples in every batch of humanity, the exception doesn't confirm the rule! The rule was that EVERY Jew in occupied Europe was an intended target by the Nazis and their henchmen. As the US government at the close of the 19th century was clearly responsible for the massacre of at least a quarter-million Native Americans, Poland too must come clean and admit her sometimes complicit involvement in the Shoah.

For anyone, Pole or not, Jew or gentile, to honestly assert that the post-War pogroms in Jedwabne and Kielce were somehow justified because many Christians believed in the blood libel etc.., is almost like saying that the Turks were justified in slaughtering scores of mostly innocent Armenians, allegedly because the Ottoman regime feared Armenian complicity with the Russians ad infinitum. It's idiotic at best, criminally negligent at worst!

Comey's actual comment made no reference to the country of Poland, only to some people from Poland. His statement about what some people from Poland did is completely accurate, as is shown below.


Which Polish SS unit could he have joined? There were no Polish SS units. Ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk joining a non-Polish SS unit has no effect at all on the fact that he was an ethnically Polish Polish citizen.


The fact that ethnically Polish Polish citizen Sawoniuk joined the Free Polish Army in France has no effect at all on the fact that he was an ethnically Polish Polish citizen.


His Polish army record was ruled inadmissible following the efforts of Sir John Nutting (for the Crown) because, to quote the Lord Chief Justice, "Mr Clegg for the appellant invited the attention of the officer to the Polish military records and elicited that, according to them, the appellant had served with the Free Polish Army in North Africa, Italy and Egypt before coming to this country. This was evidence of value to the appellant, since such service would be to his credit and would weaken the suggestion that he was a willing lackey of the German occupying forces in Belorussia."

asser.nl/upload/documents/DomCLIC/Docs/NLP/UK/Sawoniuk_Appeal_10-2-2000.pdf


Thanks for that source, even that source says he was Polish.


Name is proof of nothing. Or would you claim that Frédéric François Chopin was, due to his name, not Polish but that Nazi General Zelewski was, due to his name, Polish? I certainly wouldn't make that utterly stupid claim.


He was born in Poland as an ethnically Polish Polish citizen and grew up in Poland as an ethnically Polish Polish citizen.


Which Polish SS unit should ethnically Polish Polish citizens such as Sawoniuk have joined?


See above for why the prosecution wanted it was removed from the trial.
Are you really so desperate to excuse Sawoniuk that you want to claim the Polish Army falsified its records? Or perhaps you want to repeat Sawoniuk's claim that the evidence against him as a KGB plot?


You're right, they couldn't put him on trial for war crimes: he hadn't broken US law by taking part in the holocaust as an ethnically Polish Polish citizen. But lying on his immigration application, that they could try him for, and did try him for. And found that he had been lying when he denied being an ethnically Polish Polish citizen who had participated in the holocaust.


Because he was a scumbag: he was an ethnically Polish Polish citizen who had participated in the holocaust.


Evidence which included multiple witness statements of a crime which you lied about, i.e. active participation in mass murder, and evidence which was more than good enough to convict him of lying when he denied being an ethnically Polish Polish citizen who had participated in the holocaust.

It's pretty sickening that you so badly want to hold onto your fantasy in which no ethnically Polish Polish citizens participated in the holocaust that you seek to excuse and defend ethnically Polish Polish citizens who were found by repeated court verdicts to have participated in the holocaust.

Harry, Laurence Weinbaum director of the Israel Council on Foreign Relations disagrees with you:


washingtonpost/opinions/confronting-chilling-truths-about-polands-wartime-history/2015/04/21/f0588dce-e782-11e4-aae1-d642717d8afa_story.html

Polonia is laughing at you Harry, you are nothing but a presumptuous sad clown.

I disagree with his assessment of what Comey actually said.


Thanks for that article, you clearly think that there's a lot to it if you suggest we read it. Allow me to quote from it:



I care as much about what Polonia think as more than a few members of Polonia care about accuracy in history. Such persons are welcome to carry on eating Busia Sophie's pierogies and golumpkis every Poland day but it would be best if they stopped claiming to in any way represent or speak for Poland.

Jews were not innocent lambs that went to slaughter, many of them helped the Nazis as well!!
Not all Jews were good, some even worked for the GESTAPO

That's right, king_krak, some Jews did indeed work for the Gestapo. Many Jews collaborated with the Nazis, thousands of them. But millions didn't. Just as with gentile Poles.