Should HMG compensate Poland and/or Polish veterans?

BS...The Poles apparently read his book.


They most certainly did invade Czechoslovakia. The reasons for it might be somehow justifiable, but they did invade and occupy with the Nazis and Hungarians.

In the vaguest of ways, "give us a chunk of your country and maybe something" not to mention that Poles were wise not to strike deals with the devil, Poland was not in a sideways position that would allow it to be a junior ally, alliance or not Poles would still go to the gas chambers.

Check the map BB, where's Hungary and where's Poland then you'll understand that Poland never had the luxury of options available to Hungary.


In Greater Poland?? No we never cleared that, the largest city being Poznań where they were never a majority.


You mean the plebiscite where Germany pumped people from all over country into the region just to win it? Where families called their sixty cousins from the Ruhre who came with forged papers? No wonder there was an uprising, Germans chose to play dirty in an attempt to keep the land they stole from Poland and got their nose rubbed straight.


Hitler meant gas chambers and life of servitude to the "german masters" for the survivors, Stalin meant communist hell that was often worse than death, especially to people who know and desire freedom, so whats your point again?


BB we had fagz in parliament when your country was gassing homosexuals as a test, unless you're saying that Germany with its gass chambers, rampant racism, homophobia and lynching of Jews and Gypsies that was a daily occurence was more civilised than Poland? Would you like to talk about german workers and how they were treated as opposed to similar situations in Poland?

There was a reason why communism was so popular in Germanys lower classes you know, your goverments choice of solution was to starve people out and thats Weimar Republic, not Hitler.

Hitler had a different approach, Jews, Homosexuals, Gypsies, retards, all of them would go gaswards and the general populace after years of barbarism did not give a sh*t either so Germany was not exactly a craddle of civilised culture.

Yeah sure...they surely had "the book" in mind as they invited Hitler to the funeral of Pilsudski - and Hilter accepted. 1935
ww2incolor.com/german_leadership/1.html


Somehow doesn't fit into the after war narrative, doesn't it!

Hitler wanted negotiations with Poland...he even would had sacrificed Danzig for a favourable treaty (something Germans only learned much later mind you).

He made his own policies and laws up as he did go along...everything was possible!

He was a head of state and no one had any idea that concentration camp are operational already.


Nope, there's vague indications that he was willing to treat with Poland but again thats treating with the devil, the guy made an open case of Poles going to the chambers, who's to say after Poland helped him win the war he wouldnt go back on his word? The choice of sides was a wise one, dealing with Hitler and his Germany was never a good idea (Stalin and 1941 anyone?).

Really???
You say a totally destroyed country with more than 6 million people murdered and afterwards occupied for more then 50 years was a wise choice????

Oooookaaaaay...

If you are all peachy about how things unfolded then there is nothing to discuss anymore....


Germany under Hitler was quite prepared to accept various East European peoples as allies against Bolshevism, for example Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Bosnian Muslims, Croatians, Macedonians. Even some of the Soviet peoples were acceptable, for example Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Cossacks, and also Belorussians and Ukrainians to some extent.

He would had taken gladly polish allies!

PS: Dealing with Hitler and Stalin would had been the top priority of any country in Polands dire situation (right between them).
Ignoring them, antagonizing them was the most stupid thing any gov could have done!
*backs out slowly*

Just another assessment:

It wasn't the reason since Polish concentration camp Bereza Kartuska was already operational in 1934 when Pilsudski was still alive.


I wouldn't say so. The huge mistake of Poland was the most retarded foreign policy towards its neighbors who were not going ever to attack it. Instead of working out some plans with those countries for the benefit of common defense. Stalin would have never dared to do what he did, eliminating millions of people, neither Hitler if he saw common front from so many nations. Poland chose to attack everyone around: Ukraine, Lithuania, Czechs, Slovaks. Why? Because of the 15th century fabules for kids?

I really don't think so....

The eventual clash between Hitler and Stalin would had come at last...Europe just wasn't big enough for both of them. It was also an ideological fight of the West against the growing Bolshewism, not avoidable.

The question was where would they meet, where would the main battle line be...

Not necessarily. Hitler wasn't Napoleon who just went after what he wanted. His catious conquerings of Europe had a good reason. Germany was exposed from all sides and before doing anything it had to go through Austrian Anshluss and Munich conference to feel Europe out whether it would be eager to defend itself as one force against Germany's expansion. He waited to attack Norway and the rest of Western Europe after Poland. Why? How many months? 7-9? I am not sure. Soviet Union was defeated by Finland like a bunch of pussies. Soviets lost 125,000 people, the Fins - about 23,000. I am not mentioning military arsenal. If Poland took a role of a wise politician and talked around a bit instead of boasting to attack Germany whenever it wants, many things could have gone differently. Soviets had one of the least attack-retreat responsive armies. If it was ever winning, it was by numbers, but even that didn't help against Finland. What would be if Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Czechoslovakia, Bielorus were sticking together? Germany and Soviets would think of attacking in a distant future, maybe, when neither sickly hitler, nor paranoic stalin would be in existance any more.

Maybe he started out as cautious but he surely lost it soon. He changed Nathan, he got sick in body and mind very quickly...
He should have known that Russia was to big, that another two front war could only spell doom, he did it nonetheless.

Back to "the book" convex: avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/judpolan.asp


What book??? ;)


Hitler decided who would be his enemy or friend....from one day to the next....he would had cuddled up to "subhuman slavs" if they would not hinder him in his quest against Stalin!

Yea, it was the death of a former head of state. You can respect a man and still want to kill him. I'm guessing he just wanted peaceful relations with the benelux and Denmark too, but they did something that made war unavoidable?

Fact of the matter is, he scribbled some things down while in prison that made him untrustworthy for the Poles, and rightfully so as it turns out.


Miedzymorze was a great idea :)

The benelux where on the way to France (For the second time), also them and Denmark were more or less left alone after a puppet regime was installed. Denmark was useful against Norway and as a pre-caution against a british invasion.


I rather believe he was honestly saddened as Pilsudski might have come to an agreement with him if he hadn't died.


Trust??? What trust???
The Poles trusted France and Great Britain...that helped them big time!
Foreign policy based on "trust"??? Stop joking!

Yeah...dealing with Hitler would had surely made things much worse for Poland....sure!

It looks like he knew that he would invade Poland since even the pact, undesirable as it was, was only a step before the destruction of Polish army. He obviously doesn't lie when he said:


But did he really believed in Poland attacking Germany? If there were so many talks about it, what Polish said to cause him distrust leaving his back exposed to such possibility?


I don't think Slavs were in any love with stalin and Russians in general. Hitler just wanted to be second Napoleon and he became one with the same consequences. His St. Helene became a bunker. Come on, invasion of Greece??? What the hell is that? It reminds me of Napoleon's invasion of Egypt - purposeless conquest with no real support, which looked like art-caused than for any other reason. I am in no way military expert - I know how attack a fridge though ;) - but Hitler was not interested in Slav's support whatsoever. It seemed that he was just too arrogant if he thought of attacking Soviets alone while chunk of his army was enjoying pyramids and Greek statues and temples. Like, what's wrong with him? I am not surprised there were so many attempts to kill him by his own army - megalomaniac in its purest form.

The Brits where in Greece...and we had to bail out the useless Italians..
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Greece


That too....*nods*

I'm just saying regardless what he once wrote...he gladly accepted any allies or even neutrals, Slavs or not!
So that after-war-story that he would had killed all Easterners anyhow is just a myth (at least not cast in stone from the beginning).

Alot of Slavs ended up actually fighting FOR the Nazis (well not for them but for their own goals but you get my drift).

That's why there had been other options open to a smarter polish government than those which they actually took.
It couldn't have been any worse in the end!

So no, it wasn't all the Brits fault...which brings us back to the topic *phew*

Holland is on the way to France?


I think that Poland thought that UK and France would react, not because they wanted to help Poland, but in order to defeat Germany quickly. Yea. What if he would have been successful? You think the future held peaceful times for Poland surrounded by German territory? Like it did for the Czechs?


Considering that he wasn't making those decisions at the time, it's a non issue.

Yep.


How can you control where the British are if the ocean is all around Europe? :) No matter what you do, you won't cover all the beaches of Europe?


But as you might see from the highlighted points from your quotes, Hitler would do it anyway. Whether they sign a pact or not, it just changed his tactics in direction of attack, but not of eventual result, which was to be the same - whole Europe. Poland had;) a big mouth, but I would doubt it would really attack Germany, especially after the latter attached Austria to itself and took a chunk of industrial Czechoslovakia. Hitler just wanted the conquest no matter what.


After Maginot line was built - yes ;)



If not these "aegis" and other pretentious moves, it would have changed a lot of European history, no doubt.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Netherlands_(1939%E2%80%931945)#Interbellum


Hitler for sure didn't want anything between him and GB/France left unattended.


They wouldn't had suffered so much and not destroyed...the Czechs came out of all this fairly unscathed.


I'm just reacting to your "the book" issue...THAT was a non-issue for many contemporary people and politicians at that time too...

Right after the motto: "What does interest me my crap I wrote yesterday"


What do you ask me? Am I Hitler or what??? ;)


Where did you read that?

You know what plans did Hitler have for Poland, gas us all and some 100.000 survivors would be resettled to Siberia.

6 milion people murdered and occupation by the soviets is still preferreble to all people murdered and the country gone forever.


IF they were geographicaly a sidetrack, Poland as the fourth strongest challenger in Europe and direct neighbour as well as being smack in the middle of Europe did not get a deal and even if it did who's to say that after Hitler spanked Russia he wouldnt just decide to gas Poles anyway? 6 milion people and a wrecked country is a high price but we're still around, dealing with Hitler might've meant we'd get wiped out.

The Ardennes aren't part of the swamp... No reason for attacking Holland, firebombing Rotterdam...

I know everything about Generalplan Ost...it was shoved down our throats in school often enough.
I only came slowly questioning it as a) nobody could point me to the original source only some shady copy out of someones memory AND b.) as I learned how "multikulti" Hitler's troops actually were after all.

With alot of "subhumans" in them, voluntarily.

Make of that what you want.


Now that sounds rather like a convenient apology that the government denies any error it probably made...you know:
"We were right to not deal with Hitler he would had killed us anyhow"

Oh...and the soviet commies told the same story for decades too....another try at justifying their brotherly help and liberation...as in:
"Look, we are so much nicer than the mean Nazis, they would had killed you all anyhow. Be grateful to comrade Stalin!"

So, it must be true then!


You never would had even had the price to pay that you did and would still be around!
Hitler had the chance of a fruitfly in hell to win this war and not even the Jews got wiped out in the end!
(But of course it would be much harder to cope with such horrible suffering if one can believe it was necessary and for a good cause!)

Assuming that Hitler would be defeated, you're correct. The question is, what if he wasn't stopped?


Well, he pretty much followed his book to the letter...

In my post #73 I mentioned some of your quotes and highlighted some points which seem to be self-explanatory. It is surprising to imagine Hitler trusting more to Soviets than to Poles (I don't judge him, since I wouldn't trust either), but he would have made a better choice in making Poland on his side. And I don't grasp how it was impossible. He simply underestimated Soviets. What was happening from the first signing of pact between Germany and Poland in 1934 that made him so unsure and more eager to get rid of the wall between him and Soviets, making enemies on the occupied territories and exposing his army to another threat, not only internal (on occupied lands), but also of the inevitable border attack from Soviets?

He lost it...he should had stopped with France.
The high point for the Germans really had been the reversed humiliation as he forced the french to subscribe to their capitulation in the same wagon in Versailles from 1918.

No, what he had in mind later was unwinnable!


A detoriating mind!

Agree. As BB said it was to get rid of the possible British descent area in the future.
Ok, guys, I am off.

Have to go too...'nite :)

"Fruitfly in hell" who said the Germans have no humour?

Sokrates is right on that point according to documented evidence. He wanted to disperse the Polish diaspora to the far reaches of the USSR (as it was).

What evidence?

Geez BB, do you want the archival codes to them? ;0 ;) I have read this in different sources of varied repute. It is also sth of common knowledge in Poland that such a desire was communicated by the Nazis. I'm just NOT going to teach a German what lebensraum means, BB. You know the implications.

There were detailed plans on what happens to Poles/Russians etc.

Approximately half a milion to a milion polish youths would be germanised, the remainder of the people would be gassed and 100.000 Poles resettled to Siberia.

Russians and Ruthenians considered more docile than Poles would be reduced in number (population of largest cities was supposed to be gassed) and the smaller towns and villages would be turned into serfs for their german masters.

Overall the plan predicted gassing over 100 milion people so i dare say that Germany of WWII era was a barbaric nation run by psychopaths and polish politicians were very reasonable in not talking to it, you do not give a gun to a murderer who's knocking at your door.

watch your terminology. It's people who use it who create the problem.