Should Poland be given ANY credit for ALLOWING Jews into Poland for 1000 years?

Jews are known for theri intelligence, cleverness, craftiness and entrepreneruship. If so many had moved to Poland since King Casimir's time, shouldn't Poland have developed economically far beyond what it did?

The issue really is not whether Poland ought to be given "credit" for allowing Jews in in the first place, but WHY were Jews allowed into most European countries in the first place?! They were convenient pawns of the various petty princes, rules, kings, whatnot, who held sway over their own territory/territories and saw the Jews as a useful bargaining chip, that's all! Sadly as we all well know, the predominant Catholic monarchies at the time, i.e. from the Middle Ages up through the Renaissance, forced the Jews into conversion, most egregious being the Spanish Inquisition, whereby Jews were burned for their beliefs, forced to remain in ghettos, and marginalized within society.

With this pariah status, Jews had virtually zero mobility within Europe, made to perform the thankless tasks of money lending or tax collection among the (Catholic) peasantry, as such was deemed "un-Christian". Jews were therefore and forever after branded as financially predisposed genii, yet socially parasitic and inept.

This stereotype is alive and well! How often do we hear, " Get yourself a real Jewish doctor, lawyer, accountant etc..'cuz they're super smart!" Invite that person to a family gathering???! FUGGETABOUTIT!:-)

This social ostracism essentially has remained unchanged.

Well is getting a Jewish doctor, lawyer, accountant because he is "supersmart" a negative stereotype about Jews? To me that sounds like a put up not a put down.

As far as Jews in Poland goes, the great rabbi Moses Isserles said "If not for Poland the fate of the tribe of Israel would have been unbearable". It seems he gave credit to Poland for allowing Jews in for hundreds of years and he didn't take it for granted. Good for Isserles.

The bottom line is, although some Jews may have been pawns of some European kings and rulers, Jews overall were able to increase their population and have the OPPORUNITY to build their schools, businesses, culture, etc in countries like Poland. Jews would not have CHOSE to live in countries like Poland if it was not overall beneficial for them.

Our own, the late President Richard M. Nixon, thought enough of Henry Kissinger's Harvard professorship and admittedly brilliant mind to make him Secretary of States......but NOT enough to ever even think to invite Kissinger to a garden party on the Front Lawn or, even to invite him to Trish's wedding because he was Jewish!

You love us when it's convenient financially, yet when we're no longer deemed necessary, you toss us to the wolves, throw us into camps and essentially tell us to eat manure.

And you guys call yourselves "Christians"????!!

?????

LOL

You think Richard Nixon was a "Christian"?

You can find bad people in any group of people that treat another group of people badly. You can find Christians that treat Jews badly and Jews that treat Christians badly. But it would be silly to be quick to paint a whole group of people with one brush based on what some of them do. You can also find Christians that treat other Christians badly and Jews that treat other Jews badly.

Kinda missed my point, MediaWatch!

I was being sarky with my last comment (surprised you didn't pick up on that oneLOL).

The issue is/was that Nixon showed the same intrinsic disrespect for Kissinger which all dyed-in-the-wool anti-Semites show. To Nixon, Kissinger was DIFFERENT from himself, because the former was a Jew, good enough to have his brains picked, yet not good enough to break bread with Pat for breakfast at the family table:-)

If people who are supposed to be Christian acted as they have over the last thousand years, what does that say about Christianity as understood by its followers??

Furthermore, please don't misunderstand my remarks as in some wise or manner "anti-Christian"! I'm merely anti-hypocrisy, that's all, be it Christian, Jewish or what have you:-)

My argument was, using Nixon as but one example, that all throughout history Jews have been considered smart enough to be of use to gentiles, yet somehow NEVER quite good enough to become part of their inner sanctum, i.e. close circle of friends, staple guest at family gatherings, christenings, etc... That's what stinks!

And the vice-versa is probably even more true. The Talmud, tje sacred book of Jewry, descibes goyim (gentiles) as created by God as something akin to beasts of burden to serve the Jewish nation.

Please quote from the Talmud where it says that.

Go on Polonius. We'll be waiting for proof.

answers.yahoo/question/index?qid=20100714142940AAHjRED

This link gives sources, chapters, pages, etc. in the Talmud. If you're really that interested (and not just in it for the bicker and banter as usual), plus being a super-mega-ultra computer geek, you should have no trouble tracking them down.

Hahahaha, Polonius, did you actually read the link?! I already read it before you posted it - and the beautiful thing is this -

I think you should read the "Best Answer", quoted here -

Thanks Polonius, you just managed to prove that you were lying ;) Now, perhaps you'd like to answer the question that the "Best Answer" posed - why are you relying on the lies of anti-Semites to attack Judaism?

For our lazy readers, the first quote in bold happens to be the claim that Polonius made above.

I never said I was a Talmud expert. Since you seem to be, why not give us some authentic quotes of what the Talmud really says about gentiles. I'm always willing to learn something new.

What about this:
Libbre David 37
A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them.

rense.com/general86/talmd.htm

Do stop lying, Polonius.

If you didn't know if it was true, then you would have mentioned this. Instead, you posted it as if it was fact - which it isn't.


Lies again, as shown here -


freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/van_hyning.html

Polonius, could you - perhaps - just stop lying about what the Jewish religious books say? Would that really be so difficult? All you're doing is making yourself look exceptionally stupid with these made up quotes - as well as making Poland look bad.

I'm not lying. I simply do not know and am searching for the truth. Since that is your domain, why not finally give us some true, authentic and genuine qutoes from the Talmud on the Goyim. Remember you, not me, are the super-ultra-mega e-gadgetarian. They shouldn't be that hard for you to hunt up. Failure to do so will simply entrench the urban myths in circulation (assuming they are just myth), but some doubt will always remain. Now you have your chance to become a defensor judaeorum and that can only be grist to your (or anyone's) mill.

Those two quotes are rather matter-of-fact for someone that claims not to know any better, aren't they?


Why? I don't have any interest in what they have to say about non-Jews, except when someone tells lies.

The only way to offset lies is with the truth, not silence. Silence merely perpetuates urban rumours that have been circulating since God knows when.

Silence in this case also clearly proves your only interest is in fault-finding, nitpicking, sideswiping and bickering, and it wouldn't be the first time by any means. That has been your entire modus operandi all along, as other PF-ers have clearly seen. When it comes to offering facts to rectify what you claim are 'lies', you prefer to crawl back into the woodwork.

Polonius, I've yet to encounter any passage in either the Talmud or the Midrash alluding to Jews referring to gentiles as merely fit to be beast of burden to serve the Jews! This sounds more like preposterous, right-wing type rhetoric we often read in the States, i.e. from various Christian groups in the Midwest who publish popular Bibles fo young people. In one such passage, I read the questionable assertion that Jews don't like dogs and once referred to those whom they dislike as dogs.

Unfounded poppycock, probably written by someone not even able to read either Hebrew or Aramaic:-)

So you're saying that the Talmud totally ignores goyim altogether?

????? AM I saying that???!!!

Kindly re-re-re-read my original message:-) Or should I translate it into Polish for you?:-)

I really would like to know what Jewry really thinks of Gentiles or Goyim. Not what some Jew-basher or apologist for Jewry wants us to believe. Aren't there any objective, non-partisan reviews and discussions of Talmudic thought and other Jewish beliefs and practices one could consult?

We already know to a great extent what gentiles think, that is, misconceive about Jews. If you were marginalized, tossed into ghettoes, later into extermination camps, encarcerated and simultaneously starved to death, what would you think of gentiles?? While not all Jews are examples of the "Chosen People", plenty of Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists ain't exactly holier than thou either, just to set the record straight!!

But are you authorised to speak for Jewry? Let's hear what the official line towards Goyim is. Preferably from a neutral, non-partisan, objective and scholarly source. There are too many loose opinions, prejudices, biases and 'seems to mes' bouncing about, so it'd be nice to hear some balanced, impartial, authoratiative statements.

You can start here: come-and-hear.com/dilling/chapt04.html

Click on the exhibits to get to the sources. It will be the Babilonian Talmud - some filthy stuff at times. Mosses in reverse. Enjoy.

The Jews do not like Dilling's book, it's "anti-Semitic." :-)

Dilling's book: come-and-hear.com/dilling/dcontents.html

This is the kind of thing Jews and Judaeophiles (and there+'s no laclk of them on PF) dismiss as anti-Semitic propaganda. Between saying that Jews love Gentiles and hate Gentiles there must be a middle ground. Where is it?

Jews are wide range of folks. Some like us, some don't. Just like we. I like some Heebs and dislike others.

This is not a quesiton of personal liking but what is Judaeism's official teaching about Gentiles. JP2 called the Jews 'our elder brothers in the faith'.

We Jews are the "parents", Christians, our "children", all true enough.

There have been regrettably throughout much of modern history a number of self-loathing Jews who've adopted lamentable anti-Jewish posturings, e.g. Otto Weininger, an Austrian Jew who wrote a number of harsh anti-Semitic diatribes which sadly fueled the flames of the gentile anti-semites in early 20th century Austria. Such though must never be confused with some sort of perverse license among Christians ("goyim"s such a disrespectful word!) to believe the bigoted or racists tendencies picked up along the way:-)

The motives, the behavioral characteristics of its founder Mouhammad, the traits of the undertaking as can be compared to the current, the language (or the ease of translation of it from Hebrew to Arabic), the tone of the verses in the Qur'an, the twisted logic and the misleading information about Jesus's life: the denial of His death and consequently His resurrection again in the Qur'an, the attitude and psychology behind it all, the geography and the movements of the characters involved..., strongly suggest that Islam was created by Jews to drive Romans and Christianity out and end a millennium of occupation of Israel. How preposterous a claim is that, Wlodzimierz, Delphiandomine? What do you have to say to that? It is no wonder that Jews are strangely sympathetic with Islam, secretly promoting it on all levels while bitterly hating Christianity, invite Christians to it using all tricks possible, pretend to be Christians at first and then demonstratively convert to Islam so as to induce conversion among Christians... Numerous other details suggest Muslims are Judaism's children too even more so, right Wlodzimierz? Like the children of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel. Only we know how that story ended, right?

Monk Buhaira and Waraqa bin Naufal were just such Jews among many others who pretended to be Christians and who educated and prepared Mouhammad for "prophethood" to spread the message of Islam which, with some exceptions of personal warps of the messenger, are straight out of Torah handed down from Synagogues ("munzal"), denying almost everything in the New Testament while keeping just a few so as to diffuse suspicion;) The most important evidences are the motives, what it has been doing, and whose interests it has been serving for 1400 years.

Jews invented Islam???? Henry, what are you talking about??

Oh, don't be so modest, Wlodzimierz. You Jews are very secretive, a property that makes many things work for you. Somewhere at the bottom of your heart you might suspect it or know it. Some rabbis even hint at it and at how it was literally constructed.

Jews have always viewed the Roman Empire as an occupation of Israel that lasted for centuries. The pagan Romans had allowed for an autonomy for the Jews and for the relatively free practice of their religion and rites with some bans like stoning, but when Christianity the archenemy of Judaism, contradicting Moses Laws, started spreading throughout the empire and when the empire itself started adopting Christianity as an official religion, blame and persecution of Jews have increased and Judaism risked discreditation among its own followers and disappearance altogether--something had to be done and the obvious and logical choice was to fight fire with fire, religion with religion. And they found their answer in the Arabian Peninsula with the Arab tribes still pagan at that time "being ready for a prophet or a messenger of their own to spread the message of Allah" with "Allah" possibly coming from "Elohim". The trick was to make Islam appear as if coming from Christianity, with that being analogous to Christianity coming from Judaism and rebelling against it. Islam was conceived by supposedly Christian monks like Raheb(meaning monk) Buhaira, Waraqa bin Naufal, and Salman el-Faresi(Solomon the Persian) [not only those of course] who, it turns out to be, were Jews pretending to be spreading Christianity. (There are many of these nowadays too.) What they were actually spreading with the help of their apprentice Mouhammad--by the way, there was no such name before--was a rephrased and modified version of Judaism. If you inspect Islam, its beliefs, and rites, you will find many beliefs and concepts strikingly similar to those of Judaism especially the main ones, while at the same time contradicting almost all principal beliefs and values of Christianity. (Why almost all beliefs? There are good reasons for that. Guess one recalling how Muslim preachers and missionaries invite Christians to the club.) Throughout history, for the 1400 years of its existence, one can see good relations between Judaism and Islam with few exceptions, and those few exceptions have to be studied closely of how and why. On the other hand, there has been an inexplicable adamant animosity towards Christianity that isn't going anywhere but is on the rise. When you read what Mouhammad said, (l-Hadeeth ash-Shareef like that of l-Bukhari, t-Turmuthii...) speaking out on certain issues, historical events, their participants, and their geographical positions, you cannot but notice that such things could not have been said by an Arab but by a Jew. Mouhammad was either a Jew, a half-Jew from his father's side (analogy to Jesus), or most probably an Arab educated and prepared by Jews. Islam and Muslims are like saviours of Judaism, so that's why Jews (tend to) like Muslims. Got it? So wake up, people. It's Holy Wars Part II.

Jews are any more 'secretive" than the upper echelons of the Catholic Church, particularly the Papacy, which has operated and continues to operate behind closed doors in hush-hush secrecy amid smoke and mirrors as it has for centuries???!

If by secretive you mean non-proselityzing and the victim of poor public relations in comparison with Christianity, then I'd agree with you one hundred and fifty percent:-)

Furthermore, it's never been an "equal" relationship between Jews and gentiles throughout the history of Europe! Jews were typically brought into various countries (including Turkey under the Ottomans) when tradesmanship was lacking among their own and desparately needed, only to literally toss the Jews right out as soon as the latter ceased to be of immediate profit to the reigning aristocracy at the time:-) England for instance, banned the Jews for almost three hundred years until Cromwell allowed them to return. Prior to that, Jews were burned out of the homes as in the Lincolnshire Massacre in the 12th century, and their lives were made hell.

On the continent it wasn't much better until perhaps the Enlightenment. From the end of the 18th century on, Jews in the German-speaking lands especially were granted rights heretofore unthinkable, same in France under the Code Napoleon. Until the latter half of the 19th century, up though the 1920's, Jews enjoyed a status previously denied. The cruelest of ironies is that this was to be the beginning of their end.