Does Poland deserve credit for the 1989 Revolution?

It backfires...that's for sure!

Oh come on! That's obviously the fault of the Jews! Any real Pole will tell you that.

No, it works pretty well. Like the poodle dog, Poland is acquiring the association with being powerless, completely useless, and extremely annoying.

"is acquiring"?!?!!!!

Well, I of course exclude the common citizen of Europe/US, since they have little say in what goes on in the world, anyway. Heads of state around the world probably don't (yet) see Poland as powerless or useless... just extremely annoying.

LOL ! Which revolution ? Commies made a deal with quasi-opposition.

Soon they (politicians) will try to force us to celebrate these events. I bet that current generations are properly conditioned in public schools.

There was nothing revolting about 1989 it was move engineered by communists to change the way of Soviet Empire and the way its was govern, which went partially awry.

There is a good reason that people consider the defining moment of the communist revolt the tearing down of the wall. Germany was always a big player, in Australia we knew a lot about Germany, no doubt in the US as well. The wall was symbolic and known as something people constantly risked their lives to cross. It was as well known as the great wall of china, no doubt more known than Hadrians Walls. It was a very symbolic reminder of the USSR control. Also with Germany such a big player in Europe (for all the wrong reasons) in the 20th century, it is not surprising.

Also behind Russia, East Germany would have been considered (by the western world) the least likely European country to break from communism. Nobody knew anything about Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaris, Hungary, Poland. These were just names of places that no one would ever go to in their life. But Germany was a country split in half with everyone knowing that families were split that one day your cousin was accessible, the next day they were not.

Now those steeped in history have an idea about things, but that is not the average human and really you could not expect that the average student would have any idea about how any of the countries broke from communism, only that a number of them were communist countries and that the wall was torn down. In Australia, I cannot imagine why it would be taught in schools, other than to fluke it onto the curriculum.

History in Australian schools is likely to be made up of

Australian History (85%)
World History (15%)
The World History is likely to cover the two wars, it is likely to cover issues like women's suffrage, child labour changes, the English Feudal Sytem, the Industrial Revolution, Egypt etc

Things that are really unlikely (but may be lucky to get a look in)
Minor Roman History
Minor Greek History
Rulers (such as Napoleon, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great)
American Civil War (more to do with slavery/racism in the US)

Things really unlikely to get a look in
French Revolution
Spanish Revolution
Hungarian Revolution
Russian Revolution
Peter the Great
Joseph Stalin (other than mainly his dealings in World War II)
Vladimir Lenin
Poland anything
Czech anything
Yugoslav anything
Romanian anything
Bulgarian anything
Asian anything
etc etc

Now this may sound like "geez, what do they teach these people" but think about it. Most of all history in any country will be teaching about the country, that is a bulk of the workload, fair enough as well. Then when you look outside that to a global outlook, there are only so many subjects that can be covered. Of course there are specialised history courses, but in general a student will do a few hours of history each week (say 5), you can only cover so much in that time and any of the topics taught are as relevant as the ones not taught.

I have an interest in the subject, so I spent a lot of time reading up on it personally and those that are interested will do just that or they will chose it as a topic for a project of some kind. Of course though the average conversation people have does not surround the fall of continental communism and there are not plaques up all over Australia discussing the shipyards etc. I am not sure what Poland really could have done to make it any different other than if they had some well known symbolic barrier keeping their people from entering the west, but with all the borders communist borders, this simply never was the case and if there was, it would never have become as well known in the west.

It is a fact that the Berlin Wall will forever be symbolic in the west, that is just the way it is. I am not even sure why it is important to Poland for others to know Poland's role. It should forever be important to Poland and of course the history books, but for others ... well they do not even think about it, it is not relevant to their lives.

How much of the credit?

Uh, Solidarity?


Maybe Poles don't like to be treated as men from nowhere.


Geez! How boring it must be. 4 hours a week about Aborigines. What you're doing at that time? Trying to play didgeridoo?


So your family was here in Silesia in 1st century. Are you sure, BB? Or maybe you have a Slavic blood (or haplogroup, subclad - or how this DNA researchers call it) and your ancestor was just culturally assimilated. What about it, uh?

If you pretend to say that Silings along with Vandals, Rugii, Langobards, Swevi, Angles, Sax were Germans, you should consult it with Englishmen, Dutch, Belgians, Scandinavians and maybe even with Italians and Spanish. Big appetite you have. But you know, you are going so deeep of nowhere. What about if some new researches uncover the complete another story.

Bratwurst Boy, what do you say?... What do you mean by saying "We were there first"? :-O

Well, we were there first! Okay...second....after the Celts....but Slavs came here last!
That's mainstream history, nothing what I thought of.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples

The English are in big parts germanic (Anglo-Saxons you know), the Dutch of course....France got it's name from the germanic tribes confederation "Franks" who founded this country and build under Charlemagne the first Reich, embracing most of

central Europe.
The old Germans conquered Rome...they settled coming from Scandinavia all over Europe. Till down to Spain and northern Africa.

Yes, you Poles were late comers in this part of the world!

PS: To avoid misunderstandings, the germanic peoples always lived in tribes, wandering, settling, warring, wandering again...
Modern Germany is only one of the germanic tribes nations today (and even now we cherish our different regions cultures).
Not every German today is a Germanic (due to the mass immigration after the war), nor are all Germanics Germans but members of other nations...but my people is spread all over Europe and even the world now! ;)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American

So?

So!

No judgement, only a fact!

Gorbachev probably and his golden boys.

And I would say: Gorbachev and Solidarity :-)

You still don't understand. I just dare to doubt if you're a Germanic German ;-) It would be so funny with all your pride and helmets high.

And as far as you're talking about Poles, I'm a Pole, but not a Slav.

For sure Polki had drained off the budgets of USSR officials.

Why? Do you have something against proud people?


And? Are you not a proud Pole?

And what are you?Arborrghini?

In any case. It's because sometimes the reason of pride is so distant, meaningless and obscure and moreover sensitive to revolutions in research. I just worry about you in case you're not so Germanic German. By the way, have you checked your DNA?

Yes, I am a modestly proud Pole. But I'm not looking for funny Sarmatians, Ants, Sklavinoi, Polans to define myself.


And who the hell is Arborrghini? Certainly I'm not a Lamborghini. Since there were so many ethnic influxes to Polish ethnos (and outflows from as well), so I feel no connection with these ancient unknown tribes. If you consider equal nation and language group, so you deeply wrong, as BB is.

You too weren't hatched from a marsian tree (I think).
All you are is the sum of your ancestors works, fights, achievements and errors, if you want to or not. Everything but meaningless or "obscure".

Respect is the least you can offer them, what they deserve.

I personally distrust homeless, rootless, "world citizens" without knowledge and interest in their heritage and culture, but each to his own...


Well, this topic was interesting enough for you to post in it unasked...;)

Don't forget late Ronald Reagan, who pressed Soviets economically with arms race in which they simply can't afford to participate. They had to remit. Once the screw was unscrewed the domino had to collapse and collapsed.


Once again you've misunderstood, BB.
I respect only whom I know for his works, fights, achievements - errors not, rather braveness to try. I simply don't know who were these prehistoric guys who were my 100th great-grandparents. I don't like to pretend I know, just as you entertaining yourself with. And this is what I think as meaningless and obscure: reaching unreachable and making history from prehistory.

I know my family roots since XVIIIth century and have more than 100 persons in my family tree. I'm proud of it and what they did. You're right they deserve it. I know where some of them fought and with whom, and why the other didn't fought anyway, and what they build and lost in the Eastern Borderlands.

But I know my limits. I'm proud of Kazania Świętokrzyskie, Rey, Kochanowski, Chodkiewicz, Żółkiewski, Zamoyski, Sobieski, even while the most of my family name bearers wasn't even in Poland while they were alive. I'm proud of the big state Poles managed to built, and I'm ashamed how they ended it. Enough?

Well, this history happened, didn't it?
Do you have so few fantasy or intelligence to envision your ancestors even without TV news and moving color images???

Do you disrespect them only because you didn't know them personally? Even as you wouldn't even exist without them? You call them "obscure" because you can't see them in a movie? Do you know how long mankind only has these means like cameras and photographs? For not very long!

You really disregard all of these people just because you can't "see" them? What is history for you?

These, your ancestors, are very much "reachable" for someone with a hint of interest in their history, in their lives.


Oh really? Not meaningless and obscure to you???

You are not different than I am, only I see my family a bit bigger than only my direct branch!
And also I embrace not only the successful, famous ones but also the common, hard toiling man, or even those who erred. Your heritage is the whole cake, not only the sweet icing!

I'm not judging them all, just respect them, being bonded to all of them...that's the least I can do!

No, it didn't. What I'm talking about is prehistory, which you like so much. Prehistory isn't history. And nobody is sure how to interpret what happened.

Believe me, you don't read carefully. I DO deeply respect whole Polish history. But I'm ONLY interested - without emotional twist - of all these tribes wandering to and fro. What the hell you may know for sure about Germanic tribes and I about Slavonic, before they let Roman or Greek describe them.

And what were the genes of these smart guys.
By the way which tribe do you prefer to consider as you ancestors?

Pre-history is also interesting but not the only field of my interest...actually only if it comes in topics like: "This is our land" or "These are our towns", or "We were here first".

I mostly only object with some well placed maps and stats to show who really was first (or second)...that's all!

(And contrary to nuts like Crowie I have the gathered mainstream knowledge of countless historians, reseachers, archaelogians and their books behind me, so!)


All blue eyed people have the same ancestor I've read!
I would prefer to count Arminius to my ancestors but I'm more proably some germanic/slavic/celtic mongrel as most Europeans (especially central Europeans - ESPECIALLY in the territory of the once HDR) are! ;)


Well, that is the third time you tell me I don't understand...stop that! :(

Where? I told you don't read carefully. It doesn't mean you are stupid, does it? In fact you look from your posts quite the opposite. Happy? ;-)


And I've read that we the people all have the same Forefather and Foremother: Adaś and Ewka.

Take that back! That is just a mean rumor!!! ;)

I'd prefer Segestes. If only Varus had believed him, Germania would be a Roman province ending on Albis or even Viadrus and it would be Slavonic people who crushed the Empire.