Why did communism in Poland fail?

Was that not the case in Russia? i really dont know..

It was certainly the case in Poland. Russia? I guess so too though I'd need confirmation.

it is africa ain't socialism.. people there in the ques for small breads.

there were long queus in turkey too between 1970-1980 and it wasn't socialist country, either.

You're right. I did too.
I also agree with you on Cuba.


What a stretch! At least you get paid.

Makes sense what the Jew is saying.I would only add that there was no reason for brutality while creating kibbutzes because I don't think the kibbutz members owned any land before creation of kibbutz.Someone correct me if I am wrong here.In Poland's case in order to create a PGR they had to first take the land away from farmers.There is a good reason for most of PGRs being located in western Poland.I remember an old joke when a farmer for some reason wanted to join communist party.He went for an interview and the comitee started asking questions to see if he really was a communist.So they asked him "Would you give a horse to collective farm?" the farmer says "I would",then they ask him "Would you give a cow to collective farm?" he says "I sure would",the comitee almost convinced that the farmer is a communist ask the last question "Would you give some chickens to collective farm?" farmer says "No way!".Surprised comitee ask him "How come?You would give a horse and a cow but why not chickens?" and the farmer says "Because I actually have some chickens".

But, he is a right wing Jew. There is a boil in Israel now who are boycotting somethings related to economy, their social economy, etc.

About farm. In private farm lands here and anywhere, productivity is always lower than state controlled farm lands with experts like agricultural engineers, etc.. If you give a farm land to a villager, you can make him happy at the beginning for a while, but, his limited knowledge about agricultural, biology, etc will make him obtain low production and in time, will make him poor. and he'll be searching to be a worker to be able to feed himself and his family after a while.

Problem in Soviets wasn't socialism, it was that the state was not well organized, knowledgable people, experts were not put at duties. Nationalist, etc ideologics were at top and criterias for admin seats were such things, hence, failed, also by outside effects.

@grubas

With all due respect grab a$s how long have you been in the US? every time i see text like yours i dont even bother reading it.

Will you learn to write in paragraphs, its so much easier for the reader. That's just so friggen Polish....

I mean, have you ever read a book where its just one continuous text? Fcuk sake....

The Autumn of the Patriach was written without paragraphs. It's about an atrocious, ruthless dictator and suppression of the masses...

and that excuses all future writings from paragraphs?

Communism or the version of political governance seen in Poland in the post war period failed for a number of reasons. Without wishing to to run down worn routes of endemic systemic failure (as we all know inevitability is a falacy of the retrospective) I'd prefer to review two perspectives of people close to my heart.

One being my grandmother who went to her grave believing the UK labour party were none but socialists in a different skin and a former senior Reuters man and Poland-a-phile the late Chris Catlin who believed in Poland's immense potential and ran many schemes to bring the UK and Poland closer together.

Poland is geographically placed for political advantage against the former (?) soviet states. It was this geographical location that served to effect my grand mother's view ont he world. A political prisoner in a Siberian Goulag she witnessed the death of her children among others and on return to Poland was expelled by the Nazis. However, her long lasting distrust was always against perception of communist dicatatorship (I acknowedge to other Political scientists the very nature of dictatorship, benevolent or otherwise, is only ideologically relevant when confronted with internal or external opposition).

My grandmother's view of the socialists/communists (i'm not sure she was particularly drawn on a proto Marxist socialist definition of left wing dictatorship or a more loose left wing notion of socialism - again we can ignore the shades of definition here) was essentially born out of the view, if you'll forgive the vernacular, that they are "bullshitters" - thriving on giving the people a world of (perceived) choice within boundaries and seemingly endless resource. I say she was right about Tony Blair et al - a credit boom to disguise excessive spending. Thusly the ultimate end for spend without resource is.... bankruptcy. Smart lady my granny (Szym)Borska (a Bielska by birth incidentially)

The second view also is indebted to Poland's geographical position. Chris and other's I've interviewed in my time (within the UK FCO) have often referred to the buffer status Poland endures/enjoys. In essence the interest in Poland means like a bank (!, but with more integrity!!) it is far too big a deal to fail. As such, the winning side would always ensure that Uncle Lech et al would receive the support they needed.

Anyway, just a couple of points in a very interesting debate.

Nothing wrong with that being one paragraph. That is how people wrote before the dumbed-down English used on the internet.

The book is a good fictional account of the realities of living under such a regime in which the OP has an interest.

I always like this debate. I worked at WorldCom as am account manager for Enron! Those guys are still in jail. Let's see how the middle east works out....

What has to do with middle east?

The civil unrest in the middle east is now a bench mark for a discussion on the generic failure of totalitariansim (see earlier post which describes the ideological indifference of dictatorship).

My point with reference to CEO's behaving like dictators is that in some cases they seem to suffer swift (and sometimes unmeritted) punishment whereas dictators ignoring human rights often live longer, freer lives.

Hence to middle eastern experience today serves as a live environment to witness how society deals with human rights abusers versus those of stock holders.

And if you're interested, I saw the abuses of stockholder values at both WorldCom and Enron. Staggering.

If we dealt with dictators as well as we deal with (most) of the stockholder abusers perhaps the world might be better.... it might be of course a good deal worse.

You might also perceive a Lockean style universal rebellion of the people which you may also draw a comparison with Lech Walesa but also in tandem with the other excellent posts on this topic as well as my own tangent earlier.

it goes nowhere.. civil unrests aren't happening in real totalitarian regimes there.. by squeezing syria, where will you reach? nowhere.. if they are forced furher, their regime will change toward a regime like saudi arabia.. i guess this will be liked only by united kingdom.. or, it will be toward like iran if russia-china-iran collobration with syria becomes successful.. two-totalitarians are at field, uk-saudi-etc vs russia-iran-syria-etc.. whoever wins this battle loses somethings.

Topic: Why did communism in Poland fail?

very true indeed. revolution is just that. a circular motion back to the start. Is Poland not getting back to its routes as the centre of economic and thought expansion within central Europe perhaps?

I can not talk about 1945 because I did not live at that time.But I can tell much about period from 1982 and I can tell you that I did not experience much of the horrors you describing.I did not endure any opression nor fear either.True, there were sometimes problems with buying GOOD food,I remember waiting in line with my mother to buy Masło extra BUT I also remember big blocks of American salted butter nobody wanted in "starving","communist" Poland.My only encounter with "communist" police was when as a kid I stole a book in a book store (it was "Conan" btw) and I wasn't tortured or anything,they just called my parents to come to police station.

None of my parents or grandparents was any prominent communist party member,in fact only my father was an ordinary PZPR member but he joined only to get an apartament.Very nice,90 sq meters,1982 built apartament.In 1983 my grandmother who never had anything to do with communism and who's husband and my grandfather ran a private enterprise in "communist" Poland got a freshly built,big a$$ town house with underground garage and a small garden.She would never be able to afford this place in a "free" Poland considering that her only income was renta.Funny thing her next door naighbour was a prominent PZPR member and Wojewoda.Another funny thing is that from 1984 my father ran private enterprise and at the same time was a PZPR member.Travelling to "western" countries in 80's was not a problem either.All you had to do was to buy a trip wit Orbis,Gromada or Juventur.From my perspective "communist" Poland wasn't bad at all.

It does appear that during this period 'licences' drove the economic value (Grubas, did you have expereince of this?) and a thriving black market worked well. Yet, for some sectors the 80's was a hard time.

It would appear to me as an external observer to this that a localised revolution became a populist movement which in itself was unopposed by a largely satisfied/ambivalent majority.

I do remember watching Lech Walesa on the BBC though.... but of course we're really talking about a benelovent/ambivalent dictatorship deposed for democracy...

when the workers get angry watch out... unless they're miners in the UK.

Well, my and my family's experience with "communist" Poland may not be the experience of an average Polish person since my grandfather started private enterprise in 1978.I think it is VERY IMPORTANT when talking about "communist" Poland to indicate which period you are refering to,because my for example grandfather started first private enterprise in "communist" Poland in 1948 and he was forced to close 2 years later but in 70's policy has changed and it was ok to have your own bussines though you were not allowed to hire more than 15 employees I think.Also like I already said it is ridiculous to paint opressive "communism" from early 50's and mild "communism" from mid 70's with the same brush.Talk to some old timers from former Soviet Union who visited "communist" Poland.I did and they were shocked about the number of private stores and enterprises in "communist" Poland.As for miners,Polish miners had it really good in "communist" Poland.

This is true. My ex-wife's family visiting from Tarnopol would say the same thing.. I remember driving to Katowice to go clothes shopping. The stores seemed to be much better stocked there than in Wroclaw.

Most people who lived during communism talk positively about it.I noticed the same in CR,former SU,DDR and in some cases in Poland.

I lived in a slightly different type of socialism, until age of 19, and without falling prey to the 'good old times' trap, I can conclude that it was a better world. The happiest generation here is, according to many, the one born after the WWII. They lived in idilic world, with its problems of course, but organized and humane. Solidarity and altruism were valuable concepts.

This one I don't like. It is like a tight itching suit tailored to fit the measures of somebody else, it has a shape of Protestant body. Based on their heritage, it has nothing or little to do with us. Insane levels of achievement aspirations, imposed modesty, abstinence of corporal pleasures, hard work, the goal justifies the means, what the hell?!!

I want time machine. Now.

The Pole has a point.


and what wing Pole are you?

I loved this salted butter - and the one they sold where I lived was Danish back then (strange world)

I did not.Salty stuff.Only extra or Śmietankowe.Remember Śmietankowe?

sure I do - the quality of butter in Poland has actually dropped since communism - it has something to do with the shift in technology

I would say not only quality of butter has dropped but also quality of other food products dropped in capitalism or whatever we have now.Last time I visited my 50k people town there was only one place my mother was buying bread from.I didn't know it got that bad and bought bread from some random place.That stuff wasn't edible and mind you I eat only American bread daily.That stuff was that bad!

yes it's true - it was even worse in some places for a moment (when various strange additives first appeared in the 90's)

perhaps in a couple years buying real regular cream (sour cream for English speakers) will be difficult - they fiddle with it right now

Interesting point..
Also, could communism have collapsed in Poland, if it did not have the public and covert support of the Neo-Liberal.(As it was the Thatcher / Regan era)

youtube.com/watch?v=cADKFsQRl2s
The forces at war against the Miners in the UK were hugging Lech Wałęsa and Solidarity.

Communist leaders often put out orders to keep quality of butter high.