Poland is a Catholic country

What do you mean - seems - your seems is wrong. That all I have to say.


No is not but if the Church is attacked as whole then there is only right to point out positive and heroic deeds and its positive role on a whole in the Polish history.


I did not snip, cut or change your expressions in any way. I have been quoting your sentences as you write them. You are the type who blame others for his own shortcomings. Stop it and accept responsibility for your own words.


Show me some proof or statistic that your claim is valid. I are only talking. That is your opinion based on thin air and dare to demand proof? My words are based on the knowledge of multiple charitable organizations and action run by the Church in Poland and abroad.

It stands to reason that all cost money so there is not that much left.


If something is glided or is shiny doesn't mean that it gold. Not all what shine is a gold.


Bishops? I don't know how that works for Bishops but for priests they buy it from their what they earn. The first car is often funded by their family. Income is definitely taxed. The fact that you seems have your idea of the way priest should be taxed do not change a thing.

You claim to support a unobtrusive state who tax people a little. So I must conclude that your vicious attack on priest income and willingness to tax them to the hilt deriver from jealousy or a grudge. Not nice feelings, not generous but that we both know that you are not a nice person.


Well yes it is spot on. I wasn't clear enough and mixed things. I mean to say that there are no fixed price for those services but such services are not forced on anyone, you choose them willingly. So if you are not using them why complain about them and if somebody choose to use them and then complains he/she is a dick.

Here I don't have to explain that to you, do I?:
isidorus.net/show/prawo,7,Opodatkowanie_kosciolow_oraz_osob_duchownych&jezyk=PL


other idiots who have no clue about citizen duties to care for the common good and most of them care only for their own sorry asses. As long as their are fools those sum will rule in Poland.


How about some statistic, proof anything that support your claim, so far you are talking out your ass. I could have been claiming that you are a parasite scamming people and Polish state with the same degree of poof you presented here.


no I'm telling you that government unwillingness of returning the Church property is the main culprit of the fact they prefer using taxes to pay them off. Why do you choose to blame the Church is beyond me. Do you understand those circumstances or not?


I don't see why. Do they force you to go to the Church or sing the Lords prise or you will not be given a passport? That nonsense, you know very well they you can do as much as you please and there are not religious encroachment on your rights.


Are Protestant not Christan?


Those countries started as Christan countries and that is my point. Christianity as a cradle of modern democracy.


Never heard about the RCC denying right to marry to interracial couples or against women employment on the moral ground. Progressivism is a false path.

So yes war on civilization.No way!


How is that different for you? None is preventing you form following your atheist creed. You don't need the law to be atheist to follow it.


Obviously not.


Why imposing? They are trying imposing their values on majority. According to you they do not need changes in the law to follow their creed.

They are dangerous idiots because they do not recognize that only moral code based on religion is the best deterrent against states turning totalitarian.

That is sort of coming. The plan is that people will be able to donate 0.5% of their income tax to the RCC. Unfortunately, those who do not want to donate that money do not get to instead keep their cash.

The RCC is not just another NGO. In Poland the Church plays a huge roll in the service of the nation. It inculcates high moral standards in the young people it catechises, cares for the sick, homeless, needy, mentally challenged and elderly, perpetuates the nation's heritage and continues to enrich its culture.

And yet, taxpayers may earmark only one-half of one percent of their tax money to the RCC or other denominations. Run-of-the-mill organisations like some stray cat shelter can count on a whole one percent.

I know our Church-bashers will again find ways to vent their spleen on the RCC (like dredging up the priest-paedophile angle!), because that is inevitable for those seething with hatred towards Catholicism. But that does not change the fact that the RCC is Poland's largest single care-provider to the needy and underprivileged. For that reason alone it deserves our utmost respect and acknowledgment. For the benefit of penny-pinchers, any public funds used to assist nun-run charities constitute a significant saving compared to what institutions employing hired laypeople cost to operate.

I didn't.


Nonsense not more undemocratic that all decisions made in the Parliament by the majority in power.


So which one is that?A state religion free is not the same as a state where a state is separated from religion not


.
Do you understand yourself what you want to say?


That is meaningless bullshyte, why don't you keep your atheism in your heart away from all politics? That makes no sense, the RCC is not only clergy which have the same right as others citizen but also RC people who are just citizens and have the right to have the law consistent with their moral code.

How is that imposing religion on others or mixing into politics?


So be it. Alas your hypothetical situation have no sway in a Christian country where invention of tolerance had been made.


If they want to call a cow a horse that their problem but if they try to change definition to ensure that all people would be forced to do the same - then yes I call it dangerously derailed. Yes it does infringe my freedom if somebody want me to pretend that a cow is a horse.

No, it's correct. When the church ceases to make a profit here, it'll either close up shop or reposition itself on the market. Nothing personal but that's a fact Jack.


That is an illogical response to an illogical "attack." So the statement "The church in Poland earned its position many times over." is only correct so long as we preclude any intended meaning of "has earned." I.e. the church earned its position in the past but today's lot has to prove its own worth, in other words the current clergy cannot legitimately lay claim to accomplishments which they did nothing to affect.

I am sure if I looked across the gallery I'd find loads of b.s. the other guy is spouting too.
I am not siding against you, I just wanted to comment on those two statements as they stuck out for whatever reason (probably because it's easier to read your posts than the other guy's).

Really, it's all a bit silly, the RCC in Poland is corrupt and Poles don't seem to care or want to pretend otherwise.

But that's the beauty of choice- let people do what they want and they can see where that gets them.


I'm pretty sure the standard of living and way of life enjoyed by the people in: Estonia, Sweden, Denmark, Czech Republic, Norway, Japan or United Kingdom is not because they started as Christian countries but maybe that's just my opinion. Maybe someone else will care to verify that, maybe not.

Keep up the good fight.

if there is commercial activity the Church in Poland pays due taxes. Those who says differently are know jack all or are talking rubbish.
It is full page about the law concerning the Church and all activities form commercial to charity and all about tax:
isidorus.net/show/prawo,7,Opodatkowanie_kosciolow_oraz_osob_duchownych&jezyk=PL


Well I can agree that it my seem to be an illogical statement but we are talking about realm of abstraction and immaterial concepts. As such given a large doze of generalization doesn't has to be logical in the materialistic sense of the word.

It is logical if you preclude it with few preconditions and assumptions not stated here.


Well I would point out that your statement constructed in this way is illogical. If the Church cannot claim to accomplishments which they did nothing to affect in the same why they cannot be blamed as a whole for what few individual may do. That is according to you.

If the Church is indeed corrupted then it is still the least corrupted institution in Poland.

The RCC's 'profits' as some people call them are channelled into services beenfiting the entrire nation. Caritas does not reject a retarded child because he/she isn't Catholic. But, as Ihave already pointed out, nun-run care facilites, even if funded by the state, are more cost effective because the Good Sisters take the vow of poverty and very ltitle is spent on their perosnal needs. Their frugaltiy is legendary!

I am not talking about commercial activity, I'm talking about taking in more money than is being spent or "invested."


You would if it was but it's as tight as a drum.


No it is not.
The people who currently comprise the ranks of the RCC in Poland cannot legitimately take credit for the accomplishments and sacrifices of others in the past.

The people who currently comprise the ranks of the RCC in Poland must take responsibility for any corruption which infects the organization in the present.

That is according to me.
If you disagree with that then go right ahead.


If these goofs want to talk about spreading the word of God and claim moral superiority (ironic considering the man whose teachings they say they follow) then that level of corruption has to be at ZERO for their message to have the credibility it deserves. You can't claim to represent God and be even a little bit corrupt -it's got to be nil (imho).


I am not saying the church does not benefit people here, they do and that is without question and it'd be dishonest to claim otherwise.

All that being said, it's dishonest to claim there is neither major hypocrisy regarding money and power nor any corruption in this organization in Poland.

Anyway, I said what I wanted to say and anything else would just be going round in circles. Unless anyone has some new angle or perspective I am chiming out for a while.

Why not?


I don't know about infestation but few people less then perfect you can find anywhere.


Who is claiming moral superiority? Not clergy.\, they do not. You have this thingee wrong.


I really do not understand what you are talking about or what is your point here.


Really? Says who? Anyway we are talking here about few individuals who are less than perfect but your generalization as a generalization is untrue.


Major dishonesty is only your perception. I do not see any major dishonesty or hypocrisy in the RCC in Poland. Nobody claims there is not corruption but as I said few people are just few people.

Well, who then takes the cerdit for the nuns that today are up on their feet in the middle of the night whenever their autistic or otherwise mentally and physically challenged charges confiend to care facilties have problems or panic attacks or whatever?

Religion seems like a gang mentality. You do what you have to do to stay alive.

I must admit I greatly enjoy the conversation.


You don't seem to present any proof. But maybe my seem is wrong too? I stated this many times in at least two threads. If church declares itself as an NGO, it should have proper, transparent financial records just like all other NGOs do. If everything is non-profit, then no taxes and no problem. If any part of it is for-profit, it should be taxed like other for-profit entities.


Your logic is flawed. If you attack Hitler for what he's done, is it only right to point out the positive things he's done for his country?


What shortcomings? Compare my posts and sentences to the parts you have been quoting.


Well, unfortunately, that's not how the tax law works. Companies, organizations and citizens are obliged to submit their declarations every year. Church doesn't declare anything. There are no statistics. Yet we can see more and more money being spent by church and on the church and its ministries. Instead of making assumptions on both ends, let's force the church to disclose this information and show the books. This way we'll know for sure if the church should or should not owe any taxes.


True, but polish churches are built with a huge pomp, and a lot of money is being spent on them.


I'll explain. Officially, the possessions belong to the diocese. The diocese is being funded, in part, by our government from our tax money. Hence, we buy them these possessions.


And let me that explain again to you, because you keep demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of the key problem. Everyone should be treated equally by the law. I would support a situation where everyone is taxed very little. And I can't emphasize this enough: everyone. I absolutely do not support the situation where there is such a great disproportion between how citizens and organizations are taxed so much, and the church not only is exempt from tax, it also receives the taxpayer's money. The RCC should be operating under exactly the same rules as any other NGOs (and if they happen to do for-profit stuff, as any other company). If the state decides to set tax laws, it should make them the same way for everyone, without favoring any churches.


I don't complain about the services. I don't care about the quality of the services provided by the church. I complain about the fact that the church, by organizing a wedding, is clearly a service provider, for which it takes payment, and according to tax law it is a taxable transaction. Well, for everyone else, because apparently the church is exempt.


Of course you don't. And this document only proves that churches are exempt from taxation and bookkeeping on way too many occasions, that no other entities in our country can enjoy. Make it equal for all NGOs.


Your vote is as good as their votes. For some, citizen duties are important, for others personal freedoms are more important. You can't always measure others against yourself, because people have different priorities.


So what, do you propose that we just keep the money flowing until the end of time? We have to draw the line somewhere. When do you suggest is that going to be? How much more money do we need to give (oops, sorry, "return") to the church before enough is enough? To know that, we need to know how much exactly do we owe (or maybe that we don't owe anything anymore and haven't for a long time). Where are the calculations?


And again. Calculations about how much do we still owe. Where are they?


No, but if I want to marry another guy, I can't (can't do taxes together, can't inherit, nothing). If my wife wants to have an abortion, she can't. If we want to have a baby using the in-vitro method, we can't (or soon we won't be able to). There's plenty of examples where morals imposed by the bible followers and state laws intertwine. Any morality-related laws that do not infringe freedoms of other people should be abolished completely.


My bad. I read Catholic.


That doesn't mean we have to hold on to christianity so tightly or write it into law. The highest value of the western world is freedom. Everyone should be able to do as they please, as long as it does not limit freedoms of others. Or are you a supporter of the socialist state, where freedoms are limited?


Progress is the only right path. I also never said RCC was denying these rights. I only said that these - now obvious - rights used to be considered what you called a war on civilization. The civilization did not fall. It thrived. And it will keep on thriving, whether conservative bigots want it or not.


That's why, as I stated before, all moral-related laws should be abolished. Then there won't be a problem. If my wife wants to have an abortion, she should be able to walk into a clinic, pay for it, and have it performed without any legal actions taken against her or anyone "assisting" with it. Just like almost everywhere in the EU. If I want to marry another man, I should be able to. Remove all harmful laws like these and everyone will be able to do according to their will/faith/religion.


It obviously is.


No, they are not trying to impose anything on you. They simply want to exercise their rights as citizens. No one will be forcing you to marry another man if gay marriage is ever signed into law. On the other hand, they are not allowed to get married, because there is an ideological provision of law blocking it. For the gazillionth time - abolish all ideological laws so everyone can enjoy their values and freedoms.


Unfortunately, however similar these concepts seem to be, they are completely different. In German version, each year the state collects X in taxes plus Y in church taxes. It forwards Y to respective churches and still has X for its spendings. In the proposed Polish version, each year the state collects X in taxes, and it forwards Y to respective churches, having only X - Y left for its spendings. It means the missing Y will have to be funded by other means. So basically, all remaining taxpayers will still be funding the church by filling the gap.

Foreigner4 perating within a different set of rules

Or maybe you shoiuld say the Church is operating according to a higher set of standards. If not all Catholics are able to live up to them, take it up with them, not Holy Mother the Church.

No I shouldn't say that.
First of all I'm not talking to the Holy Mother the Church.
Secondly the Church is made up of people so you people are responsible for one another, or did you forget that aspect of it all?

Thirdly if the metaphor and practice of "Shepard and flock" is used, then you should be holding the Shepard to higher standards.

If there is corruption within an organization which claims to represent the word of Jesus Christ then that's a fairly substantial inconsistency between official and unofficial policy. That more than anything tells me what I need to know. I never really trust any organization that has large holes and discord between official and unofficial policies and when it comes to The Ever After, then you better have that one sorted out.

I wouldn't be the first to say I could fill a football stadium with the number of Poles I've met who lie through their teeth before and after Sunday service. This tells me the message isn't getting through to a lot of the congregation. Somebody's not doing their job.

Now I'm really done with this thread. I don't see any way I could explain it more explicitly to get my point across. That's what it is and what you do with it is all the same to me.

B16 went on record as saying: 'We are a Church of sinners!'

You must have missed that bit when he said that he picked on my allegedly flawed logic because eh couldn't have been bothered to read your comprehensible ramblings.

like here for example you are not making any point here just rambling on.Is that even means anything?


Your is not flawed and so simple is nonexistent,I think that your only aim to type this sentence was to write Hitler and compare him with the Church.. A very mature move.


the Church pay tax from all adults leaving in the parish. They can be atheist, Jews, Muslims or Protestants but the Church is paying tax for them. That is the way it works, So, if they would pay only for the income such as weddings and funerals they would be better off. So stop talking bull.


Nonsense that is your slanted view? Secondly It is not of your business, should I tell you how to send your money?


Are you using your time and resources to help disabled children or visit sick people. Do you pay for some orphans that they could go for holidays. Do you provide using your private income and your time some valuable service to community? If so then and only then you can demand equal treatment with priests.

Anyway I have already explained how the Church is taxed. The point is either you cannot read with comprehension or you don't want to understand cause it would bust your delusions to dust.


For 63 years the state haven't been transferring income form confiscated The RCC estates breaking the law.
Still 31% of the Church assets are still in the state possession. Income from those assets equals about 162millions 526 000 zloty, whereas Chruch is receiving about 92 million zloty. So who is a thief then?


Civil partnership says you can.Congratulation.


The highest value of the wester word are money and power that came with the money. That all means that freedom is not for all. The western societies are starting realizing that.


Should have use anti-conception if she is not a Christan or use her mouth.


well you cannot have everything deal with this. If you are so unhappy you can always move to greener pasturer.
The world is not revolving around your wants. What you call freedom is not freedom that barbarous anarchy. You have no idea what freedom is.


Soviets and Communism, Fascism proved that when civilization turned its back to the roots ie Christianity thing are going form bad to worse. So I wouldn't be calling preset civilization thriving when there is no call for people to die form hunger anywhere. When few wallow in riches and the masses are striving to survive hardships.

Yes, call people with different opinion bigots what makes you better? your arrogance and hate? Commies have given an example where such attitude leads.


Including laws that prevent somebody to kill you in the middle of the street without consequences? Or that one that says that rape is not kosher?

All laws are morally related. You don't want to abolish them all you want to be able to decide what is moral and what is not.

Once you start on that path - where does it end?


But they are forcing me to pretend that they are married. Which I call infringement on my rights. As long as they have civil partnership they can p to be married all they like. I don;t mind but f on majority that fiction and forcing them to pretend that such union is a real marriage is bad. Not to mention that the next step in this charade will involve kids and that sometimes ends baldly for a kid as an American example showed.


You are talking a lot about corruption but you haven't provided anything to support your claims. I don't even know what you are talking about.

That's okay. Not everyone can understand written text. I feel you, but I suggest some English lessons. The point is clear.


I'm just using your exact argumentation and showing how flawed it is by providing a counter-example. Logic 101.


It's not an either / or situation. They should pay taxes on both, just like companies have to pay taxes both on their income and on their employees.


It wouldn't be my business if my money wasn't involved. And since the churches are financed partially from my taxes, well, it's very much my business.


I don't, but NGOs do. That's why NGOs and churches should be under the same law. All non-profit work should be tax free. All for-profit work should be taxed. It's the last time I'm repeating this, maybe it will get through to you one day.


And I already explained to you why it shouldn't be taxed this way.


Can you provide some proof for that? Or are you making up statistics as you go?


That's not marriage, just a civil union. And even that, civil unions are not allowed in Poland, with RCC being one of the main opponents.


That's your point of view.


Why? Maybe she prefers an abortion? Or the contraceptive didn't work? Or a million different reasons, of which none are your or state's business. It's the oppressive law that forces the choice on her. Who are you to tell her what to do with her body? No one.


You're fine with laws restricting personal freedoms and you're telling me I have no idea what freedom is. You, sir, are wrong in the head. Of course it's about what a single person wants. Otherwise it's communism over again. The law should provide them with options, not restrictions.


So you're implying the civilization did fall? Okay.


So far, in this thread, you called me immature and a ******** talker. Does calling other people names make you feel better? Your arrogance and hate? And what else would you call that other than bigotry? It is what it is.


You willfully omit the part, which I repeated at least twice, stating that all-moral related laws should be abolished, if it doesn't infringe personal freedoms of other people. You're a manipulator. No one says homicide or rape are fine.


No one is forcing to get acquainted with a gay couple. No one is forcing you to talk to them. You don't need to pretend anything. It's their life they choose and it's absolutely none of your business. If they want to get married, they should be able to.


Sure. Then let them have civil unions first. Right now RCC is greatly opposed to this idea as well. Also, I assume you prefer kids to be left in a foster home than be adopted out by a gay couple? That just shows how much you care about the fate of the less fortunate.

The point is far from clear. you are rambling on without making sense.


I think you don't understand.

- provide proof that your taxes are spend on Church.

you explained nothing, probably you don't understand how the Church is taxed.


you mean documents? you first!


only because gays do not want civil partnership not really - that just tactics.They want be called marriage and force that fiction onto people.


Reality.


I'm not telling her anything. The moral law is telling her that. If I were to speak I would say - no to murder. You have no right to take somebody's life. As for right to your body you should have go for snap if you don't want children, if you are so stupid that you are ******* your;sef blind you have no right to decide about another human being life.

Freedom without responsibility is anarchy. Freedom do not mean that you can do what you want.


none is a lone island
move to an uninhabited inland and there you can do what you want.


You have options yet you do not see them.


not yet but is on the edge of a cliff.


stop whining you called me names too.


Read this again - All laws are morally related. You don't want to abolish them all you want to be able to decide what is moral and what is not.

Once you start on that path - where does it end?


It means nothing, personal freedoms if not backed up by the moral law can be changed at will.


Not yet that is.


I have nothing against gays or gay couples in general.


as long as they are a part of the society - it is my business.


The point is they cannot get married. They can say and claim all they want. Marriage is possible between a man and a woman.
I can pretend to believe them for social and humane reasons but once they want to change the law to suit their fantasy - no way Jose. That would erode moral base of a society. If this can be changed everything else can.


you are being sloppy. There is no connection there.

First of all, answering to most of your quotes would be just reiterating what I said before, and with your pointless and misleading rebuttals we are not going anywhere. Secondly, your manipulative methods of responding make it repulsive for anyone to pick up any sort of well-mannered discussion with you. Here's just one example:


Whereas in your previous post we can read:


Clearly, you are the one who started and you are the one who is crying. You clearly do realize my statement was just a response to your whining. I don't care what you call me. The fact you're trying to insult your adversary each time you reply, instead of coming up with arguments, only shows there is no way of having a civilized conversation with you. Apparently, you do care if I use the word bigot. I didn't use it against you, but damn, if the shoe fits, be my guest and lace it up.

To wrap this up, I'm done exchanging arguments with Ironside in this thread. I leave it up to others to decide the validity and quality of arguments.

OK you have no argument - get lost!
I'm not interested in reading your boring ramblings about you and your ego.

You never had any valid arguments in the first place. It's not about winning, but if you feel you won, this is for you. Your ego seems to be wayyyy up there with your nose deep up your ass. You can get lost with your attitude. Good riddance for everyone.

Poland needs to become even more Catholic.
More traditionalist and conserative in social issues especially.
Will keep people normal and the queers angry!

Yes. It also needs to become more economically taxing. It will keep the leeches happy and the working people angry. Fully agree!

Are you aware that not ALL people are Catholics, and they have the same rights as you? You can't force people to live the way you want.


Normal in your standards. Normal doesn't -objectivily- mean anything. Maybe you'll understand this one day.

Secularism has proven to be antiCatholic nonsense. In fact it favors a certain tribe too.


Normal:
"conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural. "

dictionary.reference/browse/normal

Congratulations lefty you just learned something new!

What are you talking about?


Cool, you opened a dictionary. That proves nothing btw. What is abnormal? Not natural? That's what I was saying: 'normality' is subjective.


I don't consider myself a 'lefty', but I'm sure you're happy and proud to call me names, it gives you the feeling to be right somehow. Enjoy.

I love how bigots on this forum like to insult everything and everyone. And how they call everyone lefties and commies. It would be hilarious only if it wasn't pathetic.

You seem like an AntiChristianCatholic bigot to me :) Truth hurts I know.

You seem to be wrong. I have nothing against religion, as long as it's not forcing anyone to follow its morals or pay up for its upkeep. But it has been said many times in this thread. Reading hurts, doesn't it. Grab a painkiller or two :)

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