What British unit liberated Poland in 1945??

I don't recall seeing anybody here call the IPN clowns. There is no doubt that there are clowns working at the IPN and that two of those clowns recently wrote a book about a former electrician but the IPN as a body is certainly not clowns on a witch hunt. They're actually pretty good at dealing with history, it's current affairs that they suck at. Look how hard they went at Helena Wolińska-Brus and Salomon Morel but showed no interest at all in Anthony Sawoniuk or Szymon Serafinowicz and they still show no interest in Bronislaw Hajda. And let's not even mention the way that they stitched up Andrzej Przewoznik!

This is getting so boring.


Ask the British, who make their country a safehaven for criminals like Wolinska and Kern. After all, communist crimes are not considered crimes in the UK. Israel also is a safehaven for communist criminals as was the case of Morel. A real beast, but Jewish, so he got a free pass. Many others emigrated to Israel as well, as you know.

Since killing Jews for the Nazis is a crime in Britain, but killing Poles for communists is not, Sawoniuk, living in Britain was prosecuted there.

As to Hajda, what is he accussed of? I have never heard about him.

You


Jonni.


This must be some sick jelousy on your part as a struggling writer, Harry. Those two respected Polish historians, with PhD's and many important scientific publications, are far from being clowns, but you, well, how is that guide to Warsaw's kebab stands coming along?

The more suitable word would be "reestablished". Poland's independence
was restored - it's not like our country was created for the first time as
an independent state thanks to the treaty.

More lazy British journalists. I can hear them now thinking "It's Belarus now so it must have been Belarus then and he's from there so he must be a native of Belarus", it simply doesn't occur to Brits that borders move often and extensively! Perhaps you can explain how somebody can be a native of a country which he has never visited and not be a native of the country in which he was born and which his parents were citizens of. And then perhaps you can explain why you consider the town of Mir (where he was accused of killing those Jews) was not in Poland. Remember that the government and state of Poland were very clear that Mir was in Poland.


Or in Poland apparently. Only one other person involved in the murder of Fieldorf was charged despite most of them living in Poland, and she was allowed to avoid justice by simply not bothering to go to court for the rest of her life.


Yes he was a complete bastard and yes he did get a free pass. However, Czeslaw Geborski wasn't Jewish, was every bit as much of a bastard and he got a free pass to, in Poland!


According to a couple of US courts (who revoked his US nationality) he was a Pole and one of the guards at Treblinka
cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/135/439/507558


Jonni called the two authors clowns. I do too. Nobody called the IPN as a body 'clowns'.


Struggling is not a word I'd use to describe myself. Then again, I wouldn't describe myself as a writer either. Would you describe yourself as a US airman?


Still waiting for you to transfer the upfront payment for it. You know that these days I only take commission work. And frankly I'd probably subcontract this one to Suvoro's son: I know bugger all about kebabs.

I don't need institute I can interpret evidence myself and I say that in the jedwabne case that killing had been done by german unit.

evidently some elements of the local population were present at the time of the killing but there no evidence whatsoever that local population have anything to do with it.

And what evidence are you interpreting here? Your usual opinions (i.e. all Poles are good, all Germans are bastards and the Jews were most probably to blame anyway)?


The people who were actually there that day say otherwise.

don't be absurd


people? one person who was allegedly there at that day

I said nothing like that. I just quoted the British article. Now, you are suggesting that the Polish government knew he was in Britain. Where are you getting this info? And since the Brits started prosecuting him in 1997, then did they also know he was there all along. Maybe this is a British-Polish conspiracy to hide Nazi criminals? Any other nonsense?

Yes, this:


This deserves a reply for my slow student. It will come later.


Why did Morel get a free pass from Israel. I'm interested in your opinion on this.


He was a Stalinist beast who was working for Berman (a Jew) and murdered Poles. The attempt to prosecute him was discontinued in 2005 because of his failing health. Your weak, weak attempt to insinuate that only Jews are to be prosecuted is comical in this case since he was not Jewish, as far as I know, but I want to be sure that is what you are suggesting or not. What is it that you actually want to say, because you are jumping all over the place with more and more ridiculous examples.


I've read your link and the only charge the US gov't could find against him is that he lied on his visa application. No criminal charges of killing anyone. More interesting was the note at the end of the link though:


Looks like the US is harboring criminals in addition to Britain, Israel, Sweden, among others.


Just to get back to Hajda. That would be Treblinka I, which was a camp for Poles. Jews went to Treblinka II, not that it matters that much.

Please, answer my question above.


That's fine, but neither one of you have read their 700 page book, sort of like Sjam criticizing the film Soviet Story before he saw it. You guys are leftist parrots.

So you agree that he was a Pole who committed his crimes in Poland? Good.


Your idea is that the British made no mention at all to any Polish body about this bloke? No requests for any witness statements or other info at all? Come on! You can do better than that.


The Israeli state has a lot of problems. One of those is their attitude towards crimes committed by Jews outside Israeli.


Your statement would have a lot more weight to it if you hadn't claimed that Berman was a Jew. Could you perhaps name the synagogues he went to? Or the kosher butcher which supplied the ministry canteen?

Brus was (quite rightly) hounded to her grave. Why didn't the Polish government give her the free pass they gave Geborski?


How does the word harbouring apply to those countries when Poland also gives free passes due to ill health. At least Britain has managed to prosecute at least a single bastard from that era.


I didn't need to read the collected writings of Stalin to know that that guy was a complete bastard. I'm not going to waste time reading 700 pages of witch-hunting (to use the IPN approved term).

You are making things up and you're disappointed that I don't want to. Are we children?


Every state has problems. So, you sheepishly admit they don't consider crimes against non-Jews as crimes. At least in this case. You are so understanding though.


They were prosecuting him. What is wrong with you? The IPN wanted prosecution, the court agreed with doctors to stop. Now, you didn't answer my question. Who is to blame? Another question you evaded: according to you, does IPN want to only prosecute Jewish criminals? That is what you're hinting.


But you know that he didn't work for SB. Wonder how?

Making up what? That Britain has prosecuted more Poles who took part in the holocaust than Poland has?


I say no such thing. The free pass for Morel was precisely the same as the free pass given to Geborski. I condemn both but you only condemn one; which just happens to be the one given to the Jew, what a coincidence there!


I'm not saying that at all, clearly they do want to prosecute gentiles too. I'm saying that they seem to chase Jews harder than gentiles.


You appear to be getting confused: the SB worked for Stalin, not the other way round.

Just because Ksysia couldn't give you what you asked for doesn't mean that I can't, and there were plenty of collaborants hanged after the war, but this is getting boring.


Israel didn't see Morel as a criminal; Geborski was being prosecuted and it was halted because of doctors' decission in 2005. He died a year later. If you call these reasons precisely the same, than you are unable to compare simple concepts.


You call this a condemnation? This:


Let me be also full of condemnation:

There was never any anti-Semitism in Poland; some people had only a different attitude towards Jews. Fair?


Get this straight. What difference is the nationality of a murderer? As you have seen over and over from me, I call for prosecution of all the communists guilty of crimes, including Jews since they had a leading role in the state terror apparatus. I would have hanged Geborski and Morel personally. They would have played paper, scissors who goes first.


Seem. Only to you. In Fieldorf's case, all eight key people were Jews. What to do? Throw in a few Poles for fairness and balance?


No, you are. Walesa worked for SB and Stalin has nothing to do with this. If you had read the book, you would see the SB documents for yourself, his hand-written notes and criminal lab handwriting analysis and many other irefutable facts. Instead you blindly defend someone based on...you refused to say and threw in Stalin there. Poor performance today, Harry. Bon nuit, mon cher.

On that we agree!

Morel wasn't extradited the first time because the statute of limitations had expired and the second because he was in poor health. He died 18 months later. Although with that said, the comments made in the second letter in the paragraph starting "Furthermore" show that the Israeli authorities have more than a just a habit of being complete arseholes.


Half fair. It is perfectly true that some people has a different attitude towards Jews. The problem is that they had that attitude towards Jews simply because Jews were Jews, i.e. the attitude was in itself anti-semitic. Make sense?


And let's get this straight: Jewish is not a nationality.


Walesa is a topic for another thread. If I get time I'll start one later today but more probably keep it for next Monday (I don't intend to be online over the weekend).

Gęborski in his personal file would have had something like this:

Narodowość: polska

Obywatelstwo: polskie

Morel's like this:

Narodowość: żydowska

Obywatelstwo: polskie

One is nationality and the other citizenship. Although the term pochodzenie or ethnicity is used sometimes in documents, narodowość or nationality was used at the period we are referring to. I didn't make up the rules. We got it straight now.

I am well aware of the translation issue. Let me put it this way: is Catholic a nationality? Hindu? Muslim? Mormon? Moonie? If they are not, why is Jewish a nationality?

Not all Jews are religious, some/many don't believe in God, yet they are still Jewish.

On Liberty Forum, now defunct, we used to have a fairly hostile poster called Bacon Eating Atheist Jew. He still blogs somewhere, but I lost touch with him. He is proud to be Jewish and who am I take that away from him. It's a circular discussion anyway, so let's not have it, but pretend that we did.

I'd go with Einstein's view: Jews believe in the God of Jews; Jewish people do not, but had at least one ancestor who did.

But if we agree that being Jewish is something which one inherits, does that make it a nationality? Is black a nationality? Romani? Arabic? Hispanic? If they are not, why is Jewish?

I don't believe in Religion but I am still a Catholic.

I was Baptized and Confirmed so I am a Catholic. It is still a religion and not a nationality.

Because our religion is a national religion.We are a nation that has it's own religion and we're a religion that has it's own nation. Our nationhood was on hold because of the exile from the land of Israel, and so it took a different form, emphasizing the religion. Jews were absorbed (some more, some less) into the counties where we lived, so individuals like you, for example, can choose to identify as a Canadian of the Jewish faith. That's your right as an individual. But the core of the nation has never lost its identity. Now that we have a country again, the nature of our nationhood is shifting again, and it puts people like you in an ambiguous state. But these issues will iron themselves out over the next 200 years or so.

I might come to you as a great surprise that I did not invent the Polish language, nor all its terminology.

I suppose you will have a problem why we call the Jewish peoples Naród Wybrany(the Chosen Nation), and not Lud Wybrany(the Chosen People)?

You will have take it up with the Cherokees also, why they call themselves the Cherokee Nation, and so forth.

Since we are on a Polish forum, yes, using English, some pedantry can be avoided when we understand what we are saying. This is not a scientific forum so ease up.

Of course that's your story. But I'll carry on blaming you for it until you can prove that you didn't invent it!


No problem at all if you call them Naród Wybrany. Just as long as you remember that Jewish is not a nationality.


If they wish to self describe in that way, that is their choice. I'd be more than happy to accept Cherokee as a valid nationality: they've got a tiny bit of their own land left and run their own government.

yehudi

Believe what you want to believe. A religion is not a nationality. In Israel you have Israelis who are Christians, not all are Jewish.

I bet that's a comfort to all the non-Jewish Israelis. Still, given the difference in birth rates, it won't be long before Jewish people are a minority in Israel.


People like what exactly?

I have seen two American Jews arguing about this issue. One seemed to be worried that if we define Jewishness to be something more than religious convictions then many would deny him the right to be an American as well. The second one was an atheist. Both of them would call you anti-Semite if you dare to disagree with their point of view. Funny enough...

o they may be atheists,but all jews have one god they love most - money....