Alexander the Great - Macedonski. Poland connection?

Don't bew silly. Isn't it better to get your own country in order, to stop it being the sick man of Europe, before spamming internet fora about your insecurities.

yeh really nick stop crying about FYROM and put your spiti in order

A Macedonia outside Hellenic cultural-linguistic space has never existed in historical verity...to create one now is anathema for Greeks! Macedonia outside of Hellenisms embrace cannot exist, let alone survive. Unnatural entities cannot survive in natures world, in the natural order of things.

FYRoM without revisionism and pseudo-history to nourish and sustain it's existence would stumble and fall...fade away into obscurity.

So we challenge everything that is said and done there, in the name of Macedonia - for that name is foreign to FYRoM and native for Greeks...something worth fighting for.

To be sincere I do not see any similarities between ancient Greeks and Greeks today. I have same opinion for Egyptians too.

I've said that, too; and not because I agree with your sentiments. I've said that the Greeks would laugh at the idea that the Slavs are descended from them, which is part of why Ancestry.com changed their atDNA regional configuration quickly. I wasn't the only one complaining, by the way.

But Turks have remained similar to their eastern-oriental asiatic ancestors ??? Can you see how shallow your argument appears.

The same rule applies though - Todays Turks are the sole and legal modern representatives of the Ottoman legacy.

The same rule applies to Egyptians, to Persians, to Israelis, to Hindus, to Chinese...right!

Look at English people today and tell me they all look and behave similar to their ancestors...those Angles Saxons and Jutes of old!

Todays Greeks are the sole and legal modern representatives of the Byzantine Empire...and through them, those Greco-Romans, connect to previous Greeks leading all the way back to Proto-Greek Mycenaeans.


Ok!

FYRoM claiming elements from the Hellenic-peoples cultural-heritage and then trying to pass it off as exclusively their own, is nothing short of Cultural Thievery!

Only in your mind.

Alexander the Great inherited a small Greek-Kingdom located in Northernmost-Greece and expanded it, made it into an Empire. Macedonians make a name for themselves exporting Hellenism, the Greek-Hellenic language, knowledge and culture, eastwards...to the farthestmost reaches of the then known ancient-world.

From Monarch to Emperor...Alexander the Great becomes a legend in most peoples histories. The Kingdom of Macedon grows from small Greek-Kingdom to big Greek-Empire, which incorporates into bigger latin-Roman Empire, then bigger Greco-Roman Empire, then, big Ottoman-Turk Empire...and then, back to Greece again, where it started. The peoples of FYRoM believe they have claim to this history and heritage.

The peoples of FYRoM see Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity being their ancestors. They place those beliefs on two simple factors...(i) the name of their country and (ii) the name of their language.

That FYRoM acquired the Macedonian-name for language-name and country-name in 1944 and 1945 respectively doesn't bother them, what bothers them is that country-name, nationality, language and ethnicity carry the Macedonian name. Greek concerns do not bother them!

Against all the evidence...Archaeological, Cultural, Historical - FYRoM equates ancient-Macedonians to Serbo-Bulgarian speaking South-Slavs from Paeonia and Dardania.

Todays Greeks are mostly lazy people. They use the influence on west civilisation as they are the founders of their civilization and benefited from that for years. Like a spoilt child of West World, they did not produce but spend. Here is the result today.

On the other hand, we Turks have been working hard for years in order to establish a modern country and even our previous state collapsed just 100 years ago we are still a main actor at least in our region.

You do the same thing here talking about your ancient ancestors and try to make a prestige over them. As I said before I do not see any similarities between todays Greeks and ancient ones. EU must be bored of your trade upon ancient greek civilization and rob them.

But you see similarities between todays Turks and the ancient ones...the eastern-asiatic, oriental ones, from deepest Mongolia! Why don't you tell it like it is!

Todays Turk looks back at himself and sees faces different to his own face - Todays Turk has taken on the appearance of Boris the Slav and Stavros the Greek, faces which are much different to his eastern asiatic Kubritin ancestors.

Now, about Alexander the Great - Greek or South-Slav ? Keep on Topic!

Anybody who has an average IQ can understand that I did not mention physical similarities between ancient and today Greeks. I just mentioned that while ancient ones were smart and productive, Greeks today are losers. You see you could not understand even this as a poor Greek.

On the other hand, you do not have enough information about Turks and Turkish history so it is better do not make any comment about it.

Alexander was Slavic of course. Deeply Hellenized but Slavic. Just, back in those times, universal name of all Slavs was- Sarmatian name and parallel with it- Thracian name. So we can say that Alexander was Sarmatian.


on the other side, we know very well that Turkey needs to give back heads of the Polish King Vladislav Varnenchik and Knight Zawisha Czarny that were decapitated from their dead mutilated bodies.

It wasn`t nice to mutilate dead people. Give heads back!

All Greeks ?
Do you know how Ignorant you sound...how Arrogant you sound...how Abrasive you sound!

The lazy cheating southern-european Greek was a crude attempt to Character Aassassinate the modern-Greek National-Character. For political reasons!

The Character assassination of the modern-Greek National-Character - The decision to do that was taken against the backrop of a Hawkish American administration wanting to teach Greece a lesson...for being Maverick and NoN-Conformist, supporting Serbia, going against NATO and generally not being seen to be a good team-player or valued team-member of TEAM- NATO.

Turkeys one time strategic partnership with Israel [marriage of conveniece] enabled it to access Western Media Assets which were never made available before. Turkey used those assetss to assist FYRoM to begin a campaign of Character assination tactics on Greeks, Greece and Hellenism. Some anti-Hellenic Western elements joined them, and from the period of 2004 to 2009, the Greeks were subjected to a barrage of racist onslaughts. The Greeks were attacked on their skin colour, religion, language, culture, history, heritage, and most importantly - on their Greekness!

FYRoM became the Darling of the West and with Turkish support littered All Media Platforms with anti-Hellenic Propaganda...some of which still linger in the Ether of the internet today!

But look now: Greece is on the up - Turkey on the way down...and FYRoM blocked, isolated and kept at arms length...and Alexander the Great retains his Greekness in the Western-Worlds long established Cultural-Historical Narrative.

Now tell me again about losers!

Just tell me what you comprehend for Western world? If you point on the geographical west of Europe as the Western world you are wrong. i mean, they are West but indirectly. They received Western culture via Slavs (ie Sarmatians/Thracians)- native Europeans, same as Romans and Greeks. Same as Greeks, Romans and west of Europe received Western values via Slavs, they received non-European influences via Egyptians.

Slavs are cradle of the West.

Crow, be serious please ! There is not any evidence about it and even it had happened 550 years ago none of the Turks have an idea where the heads are.

In that period of history all nations had done these kind of killings. Stop provocating Poles against Turks. We have very good relations today.

Turks beat Serbs at Kosovo battle. After the war, while Sultan 1.Murat was walking in the war field examining the situation, one of injured Serbs, killed him with his knife.

His innards were burried in Kosovo, near Pristina and his body brought to İstanbul. He has two cemeteries. We do not think that this is a disrespect to his memory.

Serbs destroyed his tomb after Balkan Wars. But today it is renovated and open to the visitors.

youtube.com/watch?v=vGtLP_3_4ow

Greeks, unlike the rest of their Western European Cousins, live in a region where the native host culture Hellenism is under pressure surrounded by a quagmire of Turkic interests and Slavic interests.

Between the Turkic view and the Slavic view stands the mainstream - the Western-Worlds long established Cultural-Historical Narrative.

Turkic interests and Slavic interests in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula have to compete with native host interest - the Greek one. The survival of Hellenism in the place of it's birth.

And there we have it. Paranoia and insecurity. I suspect irredentism isn't far behind.


You mean 'neo-hellenism'.

It is right that Greece is recovering. Turkey has some financial problems today after 10 years of fast growth. The main difference between two folks is Turks are hard working while Greeks like to enjoy life. Besides, Turkey is an industrialized country, where Greece mainly depend on tourism. So, Turkey's economic problems end within 1-2 years. Not comparable with Greece experience.


Turkey behaved very friendly to Greece during the deep economic crises she faced and do not want to benefit from it. Turks contributed to tourism incomes of Greece. Millions of Turks visited aegean islands and Athens during this period and spent a lot of money.

Personally, I see Greeks as our neighbours and do not feel any negative feelings about them. I am quite sure we can drink rakı/ouzo, eat fish and have a nice conversation if we meet.

I concur.

And on that note, we should both agree to keep discussion here in this thread, restricted to Alexander the Great's ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic affiliations.

Alexander the Great was the Greek King of Macedon...right ?


How ? in what way Slavic ?


Not Slav then! - Old Sarmatian-language modern-day equivalent is spoken by the Alani in Ossetia, Caucasia!


Thracian was different to Sarmatian-language - Spoken by two different-distinct people-groups!
This nonsense must stop - Alexander the Great was the Greek King of Macedon. Macedonians always self-Identified Greek. Macedonians exist in the same place walking and talking Greek-style from since the days of King Karanus 778-808 BC. Macedonians have always been Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples for >3 Millenniums now.

FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic, in genous, and in speech. Actually, FYRoM is Paeonia in ancient-geographical terms, and then Dardania north from Skopje.

The arguments for FYRoM being Macedonia geographically, are weak when confronted with the historical evidence. Stronger arguments exist which place FYRoM inside Paeonian-Dardanian territory, and if we are to believe in the idea that the peoples there have never moved, or been shifted, are native, and indigenous peoples to their lands, then those facts would make them descendants of Paeonians south of Skopje, and Dardanians north from it.

On this basis, the Macedonian name is not suitable for FYRoM...not for place-name not for peoples-name. Those who seek to impose the Macedonian name on Slavic-peoples living on Paeonian-Dardanian lands, do so from politicial Ideological perspectives.

FYRoM is not Macedonia geographically, it is Paeonia, and then Dardania north from Skopje...The peoples of FYRoM if native and indigenous, autochthonous peoples of the land, should be given the opportunity to learn about the history of Paeonia and Dardania, rather than the imposed political historical curriculum taught there, which teaches a narrative nobody accepts outside of FYRoM.

The antiquisation efforts undertaken by the Makedonists in FYRoM, to place them on an equilibrium with Greece over cultural and hereditary rights to the ancient-Macedonian legacy, has proven to be a bit of an embarrassment for them, for there are no valid reasons for the peoples there to be Idolizing King Philip of Macedon or his son Alexander the Great, the way they do in Skopje. The reason they do it ofcourse, is to antagonize the Greeks, to watch Greeks squirm at their antics...the thrill they derive from watching Greeks get uptight is worth it for them because they know - only Greeks have legitimate claims to the historical legacy of ancient-Macedon. So FYRoM stands alone in the world - shoved-up a siding, kept at a distance, at arms length, because what they have done to Hellenism has repulsed the EU, UN, USA, NATO and the International academic community. These bodies do not give FYRoM a second look anymore.

The peoples of FYRoM are Slavic for 1,400 years now, and Macedonian, for just 69 of them...from since the creation of the Peoples Republic of Macedonia in 1945.

The peoples of FYRoM have been speaking Bulgarian for 1,400 years and Makedonski for just 70 of them...from since the creation of the Makedonski-language in 1944.

The Draguvites-tribe and the Berzites-tribe are FYRoM's closest Slavic relatives, their ancestral-forebears, but they hardly get a mention in the history and heritage of this young, fledgling, recently established Balkan country.

From since the top-end of the 6th Century AD until now, many years have passed...for 1,333 of those years, the peoples of FYRoM were perfectly happy to affiliate to the Bulgarian ethnos. For 1,332 of those years, they spoke Bulgarian and self-Identified the same. There is no mistake, no confusion and no doubt, the peoples of FYRoM are Slavic in all the ways that matter!

When FYRoM's Slavic ancestors first settled the Greco-Roman world, they did not come in as Macedonians...they came in as Draguvites and as Berzites, along with the Sagudates, the Velegizites, the Zagorites and the Ezerites, and many more besides.

It took a long time for the Slavic-tribes to form nations in their own right - the first such entity to do so was Bulgaria. In all their dealings with Slavs, the Medievil Byzantine Emperors always referred to them as Vulgari meaning Bulgarians. The oldest known Slavic Nation in the Haemus Greek peninsula is Bulgaria.

On the other hand - The peoples of Macedonia in Northernmost Greece have been Centum-Greek speakers for >3 Milleniums and Hellenic for the same!

Macedonians have always been Centum-Greek speaking Hellenic-peoples - a regional historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock - What does FYRoM have to do with Macedonians ?

Newly formed emerging country's do have the sovereign right to call themselves by whatever name they like, see fit, and is of the peoples choosing, but common-sense dictates that it must be done within a framework which does not deprive others from their own self-determination rights. In the FYRoM case, the Slavs there want to use the Macedonian name for self-Identity, in the ethnic-racial sense, and in the cultural-linguistic sense...when it is known that Macedonians already exist as a regional historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock - Macedonians have existed in the same place as self-determined Greeks from since the days of King Karanus 808-778 BC.

Macedonians are self-determined Greeks for more than 3 milleniums - FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs from since 1945, and under the strictest coercive influences of the Communist-Slavist regime that ruled over WWII wartime Yugoslavia.

In FYRoM live brainwashed indoctrinated Serbo-Bulgarian speaking South-Slavs who see themselves as Macedonians and ancient-Macedonians as Slavs - bred that way...bred for purpose!

We have all seen how the Slavic-speaking peoples of FYRoM try to pass themselves off as Macedonians. They attempt crudely, to usurp the Macedonian-name for self-Identity and for self-determination purposes even though it is known they are Slavic, from Serbian and Bulgarian stock.

The lands North of Mount-Barmous and Mount-Orbelos is where ancient-Paeonia lay, where the ancient-Paeonians once lived. To their South, they faced the Greeks from Macedonia, and to their North, they faced the Illyrians from Dardania...where Kosovo is geographically situated today. Paeonia was a country that was peopled by NoN-Greeks. King Phillip II of Macedon, Alexander the Greats father, took control of Paeonia in 359 BC and Hellenized the area over the course of time.

Historians today consider the Paeonians an intermediate peoples, somewhere between Thracian and Illyrian. They, along with the Hellenes formed the 3 autochthonous root-races that peopled the Haemus peninsula. Thracians, Illyrians and Hellenes with their sub-groups, sub-sets and derivatives peopled the Haemus peninsula during antiquity - Paeonia is the place where they blend amalgamate and coalesce. Paeonians had their own ethnic- language before Hellenization but after 359 BC, they learned to walk like Greeks and talk like Greeks, courtesy of King Phillip of Macedon. It remained this way until the coming of the Slavic-tribes when under the sheer weight and numbers of the newcomers, the now Greek-speaking Paeonian Greco-Romans had no choice but to Slavicize.

So FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs do have a history and a past in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula...not as Macedonians though, but as Paeonians. The [[E1b1b][J2]] genes they carry prove native autochthonous status to the Haemus - they speak Slavic but look Mediterenean. They do not look like Polish-Slavs or Russian-Slavs.

Thracians, Illyrians and Hellenes - in any combination, formed the ancient-peoples of the Haemus...elements from them, remnants of them, can still be found in the modern-peoples inhabiting the Haemus. If it is true, that all of us stem from same common Haemus gene-pool, then we owe it to the ancient-Greeks who brought us together under Hellenisms cultural-linguistic space and influence.

Paeonians were neither Hellenic nor Slavic - they just learned to walk that way and talk that way! FYRoM's roots and ethnogenic origins stem from Paeonia, not Macedonia.

Greeks legitimately claim historical and cultural-linguistic continuity from the ancient-Macedonians - something which was not given proper consideration in FYRoM when they opted to use the same Macedonian name for their own self-Identity. That the peoples there have been calling themselves Macedonians for a long time is given, but they have been doing that unjustly and inappropriately, and through a prism of filters...blocking-out all the Hellenic connections to Macedonia using state apparatus on approved state-sponsored censorship. It is forbidden there in FYRoM to use the Hellenic term next to the Macedonian one, for fear of association.

FYRoM's right to freely choose a name for self-Identity and for self-determination purposes was, up to a short while ago, supported by politicians the world over, until it was pointed out to them, first by historian scholars of the classics, and second, by demographers of the Haemus [Balkan] peninsula - there is nothing Macedonian in FYRoM, not the land, not the peoples. Total self-determination should mean differentiation for FYRoM! The name they covet for self-identity must be different enough to distinguish them from Hellenic Macedonians...who are by definition, a regional historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock.

The name dispute between FYRoM and Greece has lots to do with politics, but more to do with history. Historian scholars of the classics are simply not prepared to rewrite the Western-Worlds long established cultural historical narrative to accomodate FYRoM's homegrown ethno-genesis story...the way some Western politicians were prepared to do. Some Western politicians were prepared to award FYRoM the Macedonian-name for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity...but for the concerns of the Greeks and the objections of historian scholars of the classics.

Yes, Alexander was Greek, or well (ancient) Macedonian, and only claim today's Macedonians have is he was from area where they live today, so they might as well celebrate him and those that believe he was a Slav are delusional.

But it's always funny to see Greeks and Macedonians or Greeks and Turks fight today.

Not true. Alexander the Great never went there or set foot there. He was born in Pella, today,s Greece. Common knowledge.

FYRoM used Revisionism and Pseudo-History to legitimize it's existence in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula which prompted the Greeks to take defensive actions to protect their own National-History. Plus the one Greece inherits for representing Hellenism in the modern era. The Hellenic Republic is the sole and legal modern heir and inheritor of the Byzantine Eastern Roman Empire, with all the cultural and historical elements which stem from that.

Europe's National-histories do not clash with the long established mainstream historical narrative the way FYRoM's national-history does. It makes FYRoM the odd-man out in this setting. FYRoM scripted itself a national history which veers too much from the mainstream. FYRoM's diaspora were very instrumental in this endeavour, particularly the Canadian one. They crossed the line though - FYRoM ex-pats from Canada, Australia and the USA worked in tandem pooling their wealth and resources to badmouth Greeks, Greece and Hellenism. Aided and abetted by Turkey, along with some anti-Hellenic Western elements wanting to teach Greece a lesson for being too Maverick and NoN-Conformist...they littered the internet with anti-Hellenic propaganda.

The historical debate FYRoM was always destined to lose, on the basis, history cannot be altered simply by rewriting it. FYRoM's national history clashes and conflicts with the mainstream at so many levels, the international academic community banded together to challenge the FYRoM version of it

I wasn't saying he was born in Skoplje or there, just in region that is Macedonia, and republic of Macedonia has large part of that region today.

Greeks stolen Slavic history. On that, you absolutely agree with Anglo-Germanics, Albanians and Turks. Its a shame


wtf? Its hard to say who was more beaten in that battle. As for Murad I, Voivode Milos Obilic killed him during the battle, exactly as he said that he would do the day before battle. He was sworn to the Dragon Order and to the Serbian King Lazarus, that he would kill Turkish Sultan. But not only that he just killed Sultan but he ripped and opened his stomach so that Sultan couldn`t prevent his own guts to go out. That`s how Murad I died. In his own sh**. That devil got

Classic! Vintage Makedonist Mind-Set.

Greeks were created by the West in 1821. Greeks and the West stole the history and heritage of the Slavs in order to cheat Slavdom from it's true history and heritage in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula, which they equate to Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity.

Between Slavdom and Turan stands Hellenism - the host culture in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula. Greeks cannot progress or go forward with mindsets like this for neighbours!

Greeks should not have to defend and protect the Western-Worlds Cultural Historical Narrative alone...our Western partners and European Cousins should protect it too!

sure. They sending you a lot of money. Take more from idiots, he, he, he

Of course, you serbs need some so-called heroic stories for your poor history.

While defining the death of a Sultan so disrespectful and full of hatred,you try to show yourself very emotional by demanding the head of a Polish knight killed by Turks 550 years ago.

You do not deserve any respect.

Aleksandar Veliki Makedonski - The first Czar of the Slavs...Yeah right! Only in the minds of some sick and twisted Slavists from the old-Yugoslavia who spent a lifetime indoctrinated on Makedonism, a now outdated Ideology which promotes Proto-Slavic origins for Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity.

Nation building in the FYRoM case is probably the crudest most shabbiest example ever undertaken by a modern-country wanting one, ever since the concept of the Nation-State became the political-entity of choice for the replacement of old-defunct, expired Empires. Imperialism simply gives way to Nationalism if left unchecked and unchallenged.

Sure, the name dispute between FYRoM and Greece is petty, until that is, you find your name being used without your consent, and in ways which undermine your fraternal links to it, and your cultural-historic ties also.

A dispute over a name may seem petty, trivial, ridiculous and unimportant, but only to the ignorant - because only ignorance gives way to expediancy. FYRoM attempts to usurp the Macedonian-name in order to apply it to Slavic-speaking peoples who's Serbo-Bulgarian ancestors did not know this name when they first settled the Greco-Roman world at the top-end of the 6th Century A.D.

FYRoM attempts to usurp an ancient-Greek peoples regional-tribal name in order to use it for National-Identity, under the banner of the United Nations Charter of Human Rights! because they have inviolable right to choose any name they like for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

Greeks, Armenians, Jews, Persians, Hindus, Chinese and Japanese - All of these people-groups could be cited for being prime examples of ethnic continuity, since, despite massive cultural changes over the centuries, they still retain certain key identifying components...such as name, language, customs, religious community and territorial association. All of those identifying factors have been broadly maintained and reproduced for millennia.

FYRoM competes with Greece over the Identity of Macedonians - dragging the Balkans down to the primitive levels the West has long attributed to the region.

Macedonians are the Greeks that continue to practice their self-determination rights in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors...

...Who got face to deny them!

will you please, you all hostile and greedy non-Slavs admit that Slavs have right on their history, culture, language and life after all. Will you?!

Freedom to Slaveno-Macedonians!

Down with Greece!

Down with EU!


you Greeks provoke too much. You should know who is overlord in the region. Serbian people. Still. Weakened but alive, just and still kicking. One kick could punch you in the face

Greeks, forget Macedonians. Leave them alone. Go, play with Germans and Turks. You are all the same anyway. Leave Macedonians alone. they are Slavs.

Macedonian loyalty towards Hellenism and other Greeks is actually measurable. It is calculated in the Millenniums!

Macedonians have been loyal to Hellenism for >3 Millenniums now...Macedonians are the Greeks that continue to practice their >3 Millennia old self-determination right in the same tradition as their regional historical ancestors.

Fact: Macedonians have remained loyal to Hellenism for more than three millenniums now.

Macedonians are proud to have retained that Centum-Greek language and that Hellenic-culture which ultimately links them back to that civilization and to that campaign their ancestors initiated to expand Hellenism, the Greek-Hellenic Language, Knowledge and Culture to the farthestmost regions of the then known ancient-world.

FYRoM competes with Greece over these things!

FYRoM competes with Greece over access-rights to ancient-Macedonian Identity...a long established Greek-Identity rooted in Hellenism.

FYRoM competes with Greece over historical hero-figures long attributed to Greece and the ancient-Greek World.

FYRoM competes with Greece over the cultural and hereditary rights of ancient-Macedon. An inheritance bestowed on Greece, the Hellenic Republic, for being the sole and legal cultural inheritor of the medievil Byzantine Eastern-Roman Empire.


But this is just a Lie - a shameless big Lie!

Macedonians have always been Centum-Greek speaking Hellenic-peoples - a regional historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock.

Macedonians stay loyal Hellenism - not Slavdom!