Not only Mazowiecki damned an innocent bishop

Contact the IPN spokesman who will point you in the right direction. Just Google IPN. Surely an IT whiz like you knows how to do that.

I'm not convinced of that at all. And Prime Minister Mazowiecki at least has no stain on his character, unlike some character guided more by religion than logic.


Explain.

In your newspeak it does mean IPN never published a file on Mazowiecki, otherwise you would have told us in capital letters.

So say it openly: supporting a tototalitarian regime in a rigged trial with the death penalty hanging in the balance is a noble and Christian deed.

Sometimes rigged trials also convict the guilty.


And as US Minister to Nicaragua he was a noted supporter of vicious dictator Tacho Somoza, the first of the three Somoza scum who repressed the country for decades. Funny how you fail to mention that.

What does that have ot do with Poland? The point is that Lane was a true-blue anti-communist uncontaminated by any lefitst infections.
But why veer off the subject -- rigged Stalinist trials. Why didn't you ask if the Kaczmarek farce was the only one or were there others. What exactly type of pressure and torture was used by the puppet regime? How effective were those measures to force innocent people to confess to crimes they didn't commit. Does Belgium use such interrogation techniques? If not, woiuld you favour their introduction? How many innocent Poels were sent to their death by the Stalinist trerror apparatus?

Don't you trust obscure Usenet postings?

Anyway, Mazowiecki was hated by many of the "Nomenklatura" as many of them stood to lose considerably under a non-Communist government. There were many people who - despite not being actually PZPR members - enjoyed significant privileges as a result of their work with the Communist Government. When you consider that there are murmurings of him also being Jewish - then you understand why PRL loyalists would hate his guts. A man that not only ended their privileged position in life, but also possibly belonged to the hated (in Communist ideology) ethnic group was always going to end up slandered and smeared by his enemies.

The fact is that Lane was a prominent supporter and key enabler of vicious scum who repressed a nation for decades and committed human rights abuses far worse than anything seen in Poland under the commies. Coincidentally, that same regime in Nicaragua was supported by (and in turn supported and promoted) the Roman Catholic Church. The same RCC which you consider to have been completely faultless in Poland.


Belgium does not use torture or illegal detention. However, your own country, the USA, most certainly makes use of torture, kidnapping, illegal detention, 'black sites', etc. How do you feel about that? Do you support the use those?


How many innocent people worldwide were sent to their deaths by terror apparatus in countries where the unelected regime was fully and firmly supported by the US and the RCC, i.e. the two organisations the bishop was allegedly working for?

I for one have never heard anyone hint that Kaczmarek was Jewish. Seems you are privy to different little-known facts. Do englihten us, please. But even if he was, does that lessen Mazowiecki's guilt in helping the totalitarian reigme try to convict him on trumped-up vcharges?

Are you going to give us any comment on your own nation continuing to this day to use torture, kidnapping, illegal detention, 'black sites', show trials and the rest?

What guilt? Mazowiecki does not appear in the link you have posted!

No, because that is not germaine to this forum. With the exception of the palce in Masuria. Poland had every sovereign right to let an ally use the site for hosting and transferring suspected terrorists.

But getting back to the subject: was Mazowiecki's role in openly supporting the rigged trial of an innocent man
a noble deed? Yes or no?

Interesting; so you supported Poland letting the USSR use Poland as a site for hosting and transferring suspected terrorists too. Why am I not surprised to learn that?


Which innocent man was that? At least the bishop got a trial, which is more than can be said for the men who are to this day illegally held by and tortured by your own country.

Are you mad? What possible influence could I have had on what the USSR did or did not do. Hitting the bottle this early in the day?


A rigged trial is no better than being jailed or executed without a tral. The whole kanagroo court proceedings are a mockery of justice.

Either one supports Poland deciding to allow its allies to illegally detain suspected criminals on Polish soil or one does not support that. I do not support it; you clearly do support it. Just as you support your own nation committing now precisely the same crimes you complain about Poland committing several decades ago.


Good question, although I'm surprised that you want to discuss your actions in the 1970s and 1980s.


You keep telling us it was rigged but providing no evidence that it was. And your own nation today doesn't even bother to holding kangaroo courts in most cases: you just lock people up and torture them.

You are asking this to the wrong guy. As far as I know Harry is not Polish.
Too cowardly to address me directly?
Second time you are doing this in this thread, and later you will deny this.
But to answer your stupid question: No, my country does not use such interrogation techniques, whereas yours is using them freely and does not even feel ashamed admitting that.

I have a feeling we will never see these IPN files :)

Since you were too lazy to find out yourself, the IPN spokesman is Andrzej Arseniuk: 22 581 8542. Ask him about Kaczamrek's fair trial and at what stage their investigation is into its fairness is at present. I'm sure he'll be glad to enlighten you. All the others who believe Mazowiecki perfomed a noble serivce by personally sanctioning the false accusations against the Good Bishop are also welcome to check this out.

Which false accusations might those be? It's hardly news that the Catholic church in the 1950s worked against communism and supported some particularly despicable people solely because those people repressed communism.

In case we need to freshen up your very selective memory, the question was about IPN and Mazowiecki.

The spokesman can direct you exactly where to go to find the information you're lookign for far beztter than any PF-er..

The only PFer who needs to look for that information is you: you are making certain claims, so it is for you to provide evidence to support them.

PRL Poland was a Socviet occupation zone run by the Kremlin's hand-picked 'Polish' puppets. Pne cannot compare that to the Lnnd of the Free and the Home of the Brave (USA) or even today's Poland, truncated and tuskified though it is.

So why do you whine about alleged crimes committed in Poland several decades ago and say completely silent about the crimes that your own nation admits to committing this very decade? You complain about other people allegedly supporting torture generations ago but you yourself support the torture your country freely admits to using on innocent men.

"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."Matthew 7:5

Way off base. We are at war with terrorism. In war some democratic procedures msut be suspended or restricted to protect against the enmies of democracy such as Muslim terrorists. For well over a century teh USA has been the world's arsenal of democracy, f ghting for freedom wherever in the world it was being threatened. This reflects the Polish saying: For your freedom and ours. The USA is a noble coujntry fighting the ignominous forces of death and destruciton. The PRL was an ignominious terrrorist force trying to suppress and subjgate its own people at the Kremlin's behest. See no difference?.

No, we are.
You war-mongering Septic Tanks are.....well, at least that's what the propaganda machine tells you. When really it's a war for control of fuel.


Bah-hahahahahahahahah!
Funny how you lot only get involved when the country you lot are 'liberating' has some natural resource though.


Maybe once upon a time it was. But it's fallen a long way since then.

Speaing of hijacking threads, what do the US have to do with Kaczmarek and Mazowiecki? It was Mazowiecki's ignominious behaviour that launched this thread in the first place. Condemn it or glorify it (your choice -- every decent and noble person supports the rigged trials of totlaitarian regimes, innit?)), but at least stick to the main issue!

That's probably how the PRL saw it, back in the early days.


There are plenty round the world who would disagree. Some still have the scars from the chemical wepons they dropped on villagers.


It was the legitimate government of Poland, recognised by, among others, your country.

Lets not talk about 2000 election...


This is very debatable with most conflicts the US have been involved in


I would say large proportion of the world would say the US is the force of death and destruction.

Nope, the USA, your country, is a nation which admits to carrying out kidnapping, illegal detention and torture. And you support it committing those crimes.


The main issue is people allegedly supporting the use of torture and illegal detention.
Isn't it ironic that you today openly support the USA most certainly committing the exact same crimes which you rant about other people failing to condemn at the time those crimes were, according to you, committed several decades ago?

Because this is the Polish Forum, not the American Forum. Why not bring in how China killed and tortured the Tibetans? A crime to be sure but not related to Poland. And because of all the red herrings, smoke screens, sidetracking and thread hijacking we have still not found out whether the Fearsome Foursome regard Mazowiecki's public support of the rigged Stalinsit trial as noble or heinous. Let's leave the Tibetans and Americans out of it.