Was the Polish/ Lithuanian commonwealth a European power?

Merged:The Polish/Lithuanian Cth. - the greatest political/legal/religious experiment ever?

Hi all,

I've always been fascinated by the path the Commonwealth took (particularly in the C16&17) in respect of the political/legal/religious fields.

The concepts of Noble Democracy, Monarchical Republic, freedom of religion, Neminem Captivabimus, Nihil Novi, Henrican Articles, Pacta Conventa, Liberum Veto and myriad other principles and laws, have to me always been remarkable, having regard to when they took place and the fact that they were in the main, actually practiced.

The 'spirit' behind these concepts, I think, is aptly captured by King Zygmunt Jagiello, who famously uttered "I am not the King of your consciences".

Was the Commonwealth the greatest political/legal/religious experiment ever (apart from say Ancient Rome of Greece)?

Commonwealth was and will be European power. Actually, global power.

Let me show you something

This is monete of Polish King Mieszko I, over 1000 year old currency >>>



This is the Vuk Jeremic, Serbian diplomat and actual president of United Nation General Assembly >>>



Vuk Jeremić
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuk_Jeremi%C4%87

Now, there is connection between above shown monete and acting President of UNGA >>>

Yes you are right. Symbolism is obvious. Jeremic belongs to circles that believes in new Commonwealth.

how Luxembourg see new Commonwealth, rest of Europe, etc.

There was documentary on History Chanel in case with Genghis Khan (Temudzyn). He created greatest Empire that ever existed in history.

Europe owes great debt to Slavs for they were obstacle to the Mongols of that time.


yes, i believe it was European power, as i said already. By all means.

History books say it was, especially during the Jagiellon period.

i am curious how modern-day annalists think of back then Commonwealth, from the historical perspective?

Is there something on Polish TV or any public media about it? Anybody knows something?

Its looked at quite favorable

fascinating. Thanks for info....
Good that people from the west of Europe can see, admit and understand Polish/Slavic accomplishments. If Slavs didn`t had the destine of eternal shield of Europe from the hostile non-Europeans (Mongols, Turcic people,...), we can only imagine how could Slavs contribute even more to the our Western civilization. Not to mention that Slavs were often victims of the western European greed, instead that western Europeans show solidarity with eastern Europe.

Szalawa, if you found some more videos (or links), please share information. i am very interested in this matter and want to learn as much as possible about back then Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, because Serbians had their role in it.

I recommend reading Poland: A history, By Adam Zamoyski It gets into detail about the intricate culture and politics of that time. Szlachta culture (Sarmatism) is also a very interesting/important topic.

other then that, you could watch/read the trilogy with fire and sword , but that is mostly for entertainment and visuals.

Don't let the west fool you they hated the Sarmatism and lots of negative things where written about it as propaganda.
for example in that video, when he say's 2%, it was really at minimum 5% but most like around 10% of people had voting rights
Sarmatian culture was not based on wealth (for the most part) but strictly on lineage, you had to have a Sarmatian ancestor.
Also by reading you would understand the atrocity the Swedes committed on Polish culture and well being. Destruction of Commonwealth came within the Commonwealth through Sigismund Vasa organized by malicious Swedes. read Deluge.

This is what destroyed The Commonwealth, not Sarmatism (true Poles) but propaganda will try to tell you otherwise.

i heard what British commentator on video said. What to tell you. Even when they appears to be nice on you, they think of their interests.

It was also in contradiction with my previous knowledge in case with how many people voted, as you said. Although he admits some accomplishments of the Commonwealth he obviously tries to minimize it. What is interesting, he practically said that is today`s Poland falsely creation because of its homogenous ethnic structure. Also, he, British (and we know how are they `loyal` to the continental Europe), underlined parallelism between back then Commonwealth and modern-day European Union. That turned to be pro-EU propaganda. It looks impossible to him to imagine, that are modern Slavs (Poles) capable to create any great conglomerate based on Slavic (Polish) language and that we all now have EU what suppose to satisfy all our necessities. When one listening to him, one coming to conclusion that he in fact said - `What can we do. Commonwealth wasn`t capable to survive test of time and today we have something better, we have EU. All accomplishments of the Commonwealth would be assimilated and added to the glory of European Union, which is m ore competent. Its better that way, because modern day Poland anyway represent false creation.`

That "commentator" is Polish in Poland.

not Polish. Man who comment on video is prof. Ivor Norman Richard Davies

How surprising that you are ignorant about both Polish history, such as the Polish/Lithuanian commonwealth, and Polish historians, such as Davies.
thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/175480,UK-historian-Norman-Davies-granted-Polish-citizenship

alright Harry.

Shall we back to the topic, please? i am honestly interested about Commonwealth and, i don`t wish that neither my own, neither your stupidity ruin this educative thread.

Why don`t you give me some comment about Commonwealth? say, was it a European power? your opinion?

There really is no need to be calling other PF members ignorant over a pedantic matter of someone else's passport collection. The article you linked states Davies was granted Polish citizenship only a week ago. It was a personal matter for Davies anyway. In the interview he quipped that he wanted two passports (British and Polish) just like his wife. So the previous comments about Davies being British is still accurate.

Davies acknowledged anyway that he will always be considered the odd man out:

"On a more earnest note, Davies reflected that he often encounters people in Poland who "mindlessly accept black-and-white categories: them and us, Poles and foreigners, patriot-traitor, the son of the nation and the guest from abroad."

Sure he may now be a citizen of Poland on paper but that is between him and the state. Ethnic Poles however are under no obligation to cast their own heritage and identity aside and start regarding being Polish as nothing more than the sum of documents issued to a person by the Polish government.

people, i want to know what young Poles in today`s Polish schools and universities study about Commonwealth? what ordinary Polish folk think of back then Commonwealth?

If you really want to know that, Crow, you're asking in the wrong place: the vast majority of the posters here who claim to be Polish (or ethnic Poles, as they sometimes claim to be) are in reality just Americans who live in America as Americans. Of the young Poles I know, they are far far more interested in the European Union than the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.

Most Poles are aware of Poland's history. Those keen on history will acknowledge the Commonwealth's influential role in some European affairs during the time of its existence. However, there aren't many today who long for its re-establishment in any form.

Davies gives the opinion in his video that Poland today is "artificial" due to its homogeneity vis-a-vis the heterogeneity of the previous iterations of the RP. He fails to acknowledge that Polish identity evolved from the settlement of Slavic groups which shared common customs, beliefs and linguistic characteristics. It was only after centuries of encounters with other different ethno-religous groups which demonstrated Polish linguistic and cultural dominance over these other groups. However, not all in these other groups assimilated seamlessly to Polonisation (if at all) and in time class differences became defined by ethnic and religious differences as well.

So how did the heterogenous 1st and 2nd Commonwealths pan out? Both ended in disaster; carved up and erased by their militarily stronger but also more homogenous neighbors (i.e., Germany, Prussia, Russia). But wait you say, what about the Austro-Hungarian Empire? Yes, that too was a very heterogenous entity but as we can see today that former crown was also shattered along ethno-linguistic lines in the dozen or so different countries we see today.

It's understandable for an outsider like Davies to point to the past and say Poland will become great again only if it becomes another doormat for the world. Yes, its all well and good for such guests like Davies to crash a party and then start telling the host what to do. But in time all parties have to come to an end and they don't necessarily end on a happy note. In any event it's always the host that ends up having to clean up the mess.


You mean after decades of supposedly living in Poland that you are not Polish yourself? You mean you won't go and claim a Polish passport unless you can get a private ceremony with the president like Davies? Please, don't hold your breath.


You didn't provide a figure so it's safe to say they are very few and they most certainly speak English.


Of course. The EU is what exists now so it's no wonder that young people are interested in it simply due to the extent of its bureaucratic reach and the effects it has on their lives today and future well being. It's only old aged pensioners or the long term unemployed who have the luxury of extensive free time to delve into other historical matters or post trifling comments all over the internet right around the clock on a daily basis.

good news


does it mean that Poles, among themselves, no matter in Poland or abroad, don`t even talk about possibility to re-create some sort of Commonwealth?

what more Poles think of Commonwealth that existed in past?

well noticed. i myself noted how is expected from Slavs to prove themselves to be bigger Europeans, then other Europeans. i tries to figure out is it in connection with amount of resources that are controlled by Slavic governments/countries and so, west of Europe worry are we competent enough to use it properly.

Have in mind that Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth had historical, linguistic and cultural continuity with the ground/territory where was formed. Basically, as great conglomerate founded on Slavic heritage (not hostile on foreign element but on the contrary, very tolerant, hospitable) and, inherited from and after Svatopluk`s Great Moravia, influenced strongly by the Serbian Empire.

On the contrary to it, Austro-Hungaria was Germanic creation on essentially culturally, linguistically and ethnically Slavic ground. It appeared as imposed foreign element that was hostile on domicile population. That`s the reason for the failure of A-H Empire.

Now, both Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Austro-Hungarian Empire were predominantly Catholic. So, when we are at reasons for the failure of Commonwealth, i found that problem wasn`t in Catholicism. Problem for sure also, wasn`t tolerance and free Slavic spirit. No, problem were backward neighbors of the Commonwealth. Commonwealth was in front of its time. Piedmont and embryo or real democracy, electoral system and human rights in modern sense of the word. In attempt to balance all interests, in hostile environment, Commonwealth collapsed.


great truth has been said here.

No, relations are messed up now. you got the authoritarian Belarus which try's to minimize the Polish minority (lots of Poles in Belarus, more then statistically reported), Oppressive Lithuanians and last but not least Neo-Bandera Ukrainians

Unless things change, most people don't want a union with such hostile countries. There are those who wan't Kresy back, but that's not quite the same thing.

Its National pride, the commonwealth was Poland's golden age.

its a pity.


no matter how i contemplate on politics, i can`t see where would finish Belarus. In branch of Slavs/Eastern Europeans led by Poland (what is now let`s say Visegrad Group) or in Eurasian Union? in any case i can`t imagine prolonged crisis between Poland and Belarus. Also, its absolutely mind blowing to me that are Lithuanians so passionately against Poland. Same goes for situation with Ukraine. i can`t understand penetration of those retro ideas there. As for the future trends, i expect normalization of relations between Lithuania-Poland and Ukraine-Poland. Its up to Poland to demonstrate, on one side- its economic power and stability and, on the other side- its balanced politics. Then, things would settle.


hope won`t die. That`s for sure.


i understand that.

As it happens, Crow, the vast majority of Poles are very enthusiastic supporters (particularly young Poles) of a newer commonwealth: it's called the European Union. Poles generally would much like to see their Ukrainian cousins in the Union. And their Belorussian cousins too. But not the Russians, who spent half a decade occupying Poland and oppressing Poles, and even now still occupy Poland's friends and oppress the people there.

but, dilemma of this thread is clear... Was the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth a European power?

what you think? Why are you so selfish and don`t wish to share your opinion with rest of us?


believe it or not, Harry, i believe you on this one. Poles are wise.

Even my people (generally very suicidal), after all troubles that were unleashed on us by that same European Union, starts to see itself within EU. Better alive in EU then the alternative- destruction by EU. My people learned lesson. We accept destine of the conquered people and, we are now, after beaten like dogs, more opened. Life of servant is still live, after all.

Yes, yes,.. we shall all unite... Ukrainians, Belorussians, Poles, Serbs. EU leading powers needs us all.

But, it won`t harm if we have our dreams. See,... among those dreams, most beautiful one is the dream about new Commonwealth.