Jaruzelski asked Soviets for assistance

No. You may know it for sure but I am far far less convinced (for a number of reasons).


I think that he did what he believed to be best for Poland given the geo-political situation that Poland was in. I'd call him a realist (a neorealist to be exact). Poles tend not to like realists.


The particular article which you should read first starts on (or about) page 60.

You are an idiot who thinks that they understand Polish politics because you... what... have read a few articles? Not even idiots claim that IPN is a tool of SLD(new communists).


You should stay out of discussions that don't concern you. Just because you happen to work in Poland doesn't qualify you to have understanding of Polish politics. You should really pause, look up what IPN does, and then speak up. Until then, you are making a fool out of yourself.


Great. Another foreigner pretending to understand Polish politics from English speaking sources. I can take you on on this one Harry. The 700 page book ( SB a Lech Walesa)written by Centkiwicz and Gontarczyk about agent "Bolek" (Wałęsa) is very definitive. Do disagree with these IPN historians if you can. The last I heard from you, you are unemployed and trying to write travel books about Poland. I have read this book, but have you?


There are different kind of Poles, Harry. The neo-communists, resembeling you, see Jaruzelski as a patriot or a realist. Then we have other Poles`who fought for independent and souverign Poland. The latter were hunted down and executed by the likes of Jaruzelski( I'll let you know when I'll arange a tour of Infrmacja Wojskowa prison in Warsaw so you can see who these people really were. The Polish Army officers as Pilecki and Fieldorf were interogated there, and the men who survived these interogations said Gestapo were like boyscouts in comparison).


The whole article is interesting, but I am reading at least five books at the moment so it may take some time.

Written by students who are members of PiS.


Explains a lot, none of it positive.

edit

Have you met those kids? I have tee-shirts ten years older than them. Amazing. One day they'll have to start shaving, stop watching Dobranocki and stop writing small-minded and jejeune polemics about respected statesmen..

Daddy was a Party member and I'm sure you are doing well, communist filth.


No doubt to you Jaruzelski was a respected statesman. Komuch.

You're pushing the word 'historian' to its extreme limits there. Do you also describe David Irving as a historian? Or perhaps I'd better not ask

But let's run with your line of thought, let's say that there are documents in the archives which say Walesa was an agent. If those documents do exist, why:

a) Didn't the commies use them against Walesa when he was a pain in their arse?
b) Why didn't Walesa use the five years that he was president to make very sure that the archives had been scrubbed very clean? Instead of the half-arsed effort the 'historians' claim he made.

And why does the deputy director of the IPN, Maria Dmochowksa, say publicly that the book is part of a witch-hunt? Or should we only believe some people from the IPN and disbelieve other more senior people?


You most certainly never heard that from me. The last time I was unemployed was before I went to university. These days my problem is more being over-employed, I average 50 hours a week at my job (which more than keeps me in cat food, cigarettes, booze and steaks thank you). I'm not trying to write travel books: I have written them and am working on the next one, although I only take commission jobs these days.


It would be a lot better if you could possibly try to debate what I say, rather than what I do not say. I certainly do not recall describing Jaruzelski as a patriot. As for whether he was a realist, difficult times make for difficult choices. Few would call somebody a patriot if they were ready to drop nuclear bombs on his own country. But I'd certainly say that you are a Polish patriot despite you yourself being very ready to do that exact thing if you were ordered to do it.

1jola

There's a certain type of person who, when they lose an argument, start to throw insults. None of them accurate.

Though for the record:

1) My father wasn't a Communist Party member (he votes UKIP nowadays, I believe, or is at least threatening to).

2) I am doing very well, thank you.

3) Jaruzelski "was" ('is'', perhaps fits better) respected by many - his party had over three million Poles in it. Even people who hated his politics say he "was no Ceaucescu".

4) No, I am not a communist.

Typical Harry statement. The Polish historians in question have doctorates and are well respected; Erving,? he isn't an historian as far as I know. Cheap shot as usual on your part.


Because there is a good chance that he was either an agent encore, or he was useful to their cause. He was so afraid of lustration that he organized a coup d'etat during the brief rule of Olszewski in 1993. Dispicable character.


You are not paying attention. He did just that, and it is a fact he used his position to request TW "Bolek" files and did not return them. Also, when you understand how SB files were organized, it was difficult to destroy all the cross-references in the archives. There is more than sufficient amount of evidence to confirm his collaboration. I know you are not interested in reading the available material concerning this issue; you'd rather keep up the myth. He threatened to sue - we are still waiting.


You have yet to say what you call him, but you do say what you don't call him. Weak.


Harry tends to do that often but he is more careful nowadays since he knows it is difficult to work with broken arms.


I know he has many appologists. Since you understand Polish, tell me, what do you think of this Soviet agent's career? You did watch the film I posted the link to, didn't you?


You certainly sound like one.

You're pretty brave for somebody who hides behind anonymity and never says where he will be. My name is Harry and I often post about where I can be found in Warsaw. That I don't call you a traitor anymore has nothing to do with your threats, it's that I've realised that in your mind you most probably were standing ready to do what you thought was best for Poland when you joined an organisation which would have dropped nuclear bombs on Poland if so ordered.


And a typical statement from you: one which completely ignores the facts posted. Those 'historians' produced a piece of work which the deputy director of the IPN, Maria Dmochowksa, says publicly that the book is part of a witch-hunt. But you ignore that point as you ignore all others which don't fit your world view.


That's a pathetic lie even by the standards of Sokrates. Right here in this thread I say what I call him.[
polishforums.com/history-poland-34/jaruzelski-asked-soviets-assistance-40601/#msg820378


Pity we have no idea if any of that information is genuine (given that, as they confirm, the SB routinely forged documents and that there have been some 14 years for his opponents to stuff the archive with documents).


Finished that material which blows away your claim that the Soviets had no plans to invade? I personally have very little time for Walesa, I really don't like him at all: I don't like his politics, I don't like his morals, I don't like his religion, there are very few things I do like about him.


Walesa was useful to the cause of the Polish communists? After you with the crack pipe please.

We outed you a long time ago. Besides, it is pretty stupid to insult someone when they know where to find you but don't know them.


When you sell information to SB about the oposition, you are useful to them. Later, he was instrumental in allowing them a soft landing. They are all well placed now.

maybe or maybe not but i can tell you for sure that i saw russian soldiers stationed at warsaw train stations and other places like that in the summer of '81... asked or not, there was definitely a threat of them coming over the border and instilling "order"

i wish you'd all drop the personal insults and i also wish you'd link some of this other info you all keep sending to each other some other way.. kills the exploration of this subject for me.. thanks

1jola:
Since we know now that the Soviets had no intentions to invade in 1981

that is why in summer of 1981 I seen trains with russian troops and tanks going west, maybe they ware going on vacation.

Maybe, you should had asked them.

There is no doubt that you could had seen Soviet troop movements in Poland till 1993, well into the IIIRP, as there were tens of thousands of them stationed in Poland.

Look, based on documents, the Russians wanted Jaruzelski to handle the problem. He, being a dedicated Soviet servant, and I hope we don't have to argue this point, did what he had to keep the system alive, certainly not for the benefit on the nation. He asked for help; they refused. The rest of the events we know for sure.

Jaruzelski was a traitor of the worse kind, and only recently historians have published documents detailing his career in Poland at the service of the Soviets which started in the 40's when he was chasing AK soldiers. We know their fate.

the placment of troops was taken place not movement of troops they ware there just in case marshal law fail. Russian troops ware moved to Poland to make sure the outcome was the result that soviets wanted.

Actually, the historical evidence suggests that while Poland was on the verge of being invaded by the Warsaw Pact in late 1980, the tide had turned against invasion in 1981. Jaruzelski actually sought assistance from the Soviets, which was denied - Poland had to sort it out herself.

Incidentally, this is old news - it's all detailed in Timothy Garton Ash's book about Solidarity. Nothing new has really came to light since about Jaruzelski, bar the usual nonsense 'found'.

1jola:

How is Ryszard Kuklinski viewed by Poles?

A great book was written about the man...

A Secret Life: The Polish Officer, His Covert Mission, and the Price He Paid to Save His Country by Benjamin Weiser

that is what i think too. there is no denying of the russkies being in poland in force in 81.. whether they had the heart to "invade" or not.. they were there to at least oversee.. this does not excuse jaruzelski's behavior tho.. i just don't think it was all him like some want to believe..

Generally, a hero. He would only be less to people who supported the communist system.

They murdered his two sons.


By the chain of command it was.

no one knows the chain of command as we know he was outrank by someone in Moscow.

Well, other than all the information about Operation Krkonose, which pretty much proves the Soviet plan to invade Poland (unless the Czech regime had decided to invade Poland themselves without the agreement of the Soviets and had lied to their army about it or unless the Czech army are making the whole thing up to help out the man who led the 1968 Polish invasion of Czechoslovakia).

Merged: Poland's politics with Czechoslovakian compadres

Hi, i looking for photos from meeting of Polish and Czechoslovakian politics from communist era. I need photo and source (newspaper, books).
Thanks for help, i want use this files in Wikipedia!

Bierut with Gottwald

Gierek with Husak

Jaruzelski with Husak

Jaruzelski with Jasek:

Sources on demand ;)