One of the biggest falsities that Poles believe in and try to sell is that all Poles bravely rescued Jews during the war.
Polish hatred towards Jews...
!
Who you are ?
Going back to the facts :
Polish citizens have the world's highest count of individuals awarded medals of Righteous among the Nations, given by the State of Israel to non-Jews who saved Jews from extermination during the Holocaust.
Capital punishment of entire families, for aiding Jews, was the most draconian such Nazi practice against any nation in occupied Europe. On November 10, 1941, the death penalty was expanded by Hans Frank to apply to Poles who helped Jews (...)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Righteous_among_the_Nations
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Poles_during_the_Holocaust
We can deabte if it was enought or not ... but no body has done more.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11700
3 Jun 2009 / #303
Who you are ?
Going back to the facts :
Going back to the facts :
holocaustsurvivors.org/survivors.php
Just some examples:
...In the Polish army we had a lieutenant named Walchek. He was skinny, six feet tall, handsome and he had boots that shined like a mirror. On his office he had a sign which read: ENTRY IS FORBIDDEN TO JEWS AND DOGS. We, Jews, were told, "First we are going to take care of the Germans, then we are going to take care of you." How did I feel going against my enemy, the Germans, fighting with my second enemy, the Poles?
There was no future for Jewish youth in Poland. When Pilsudski died, they said to us (...)
There was no future for Jewish youth in Poland. When Pilsudski died, they said to us (...)
Reading that one could get the wrong impression...
We can deabte if it was enought or not ... but no body has done more.
The problem is that an average Pole tends to extend the 6.135 Righteous` heroic deeds over the whole Polish nation.
The truth is that most Poles remained indifferent and many were glad that Jewish problem was solved by Germans. Only a few helped.
Elsewhere, Bartoszewski has estimated that between 1 and 3 percent of the Polish population was actively involved in rescue efforts;
Some estimates put the number of Poles involved in rescue at up to 3 million, and credit Poles with saving up to around 450,000 Jews from certain death.
These are lies that Easy Teran was asking for. Poles didn`t rescue 450.000 Jews.
Who you are ?
:):):):)
And you? Do you think that by taking part in this Polish discussion you will hide your true identity???? :):):):):)
Just some examples:
First of all occupation of Poland wasn't only about the Jews...
In 1941 it was decided to destroy the Polish nation completely and the German leadership decided that in 10 to 20 years the Polish state under German occupation was to be fully cleared of any ethnic Poles
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_(1939-1945)
Poland lost 6 mln citizens (murdered by occupator) and before WWII there was only 3 mln Jews in Poland.
As to marginal element ... there were such people in every ethnic group.
Jewish Ghetto Police (German: Jüdische Ghetto-Polizei, Jüdischer Ordnungsdienst), also known as the Jewish Order Service and referred by the Jews as the Jewish Police, were the auxiliary police units organized in the Jewish ghettos by the local Judenrat councils under German Nazi orders.[1] The Jewish Order Service was also active in some of the Nazi concentration camps.
The Polish-Jewish historian and the Warsaw Ghetto archivist Emanuel Ringelblum has described the cruelty of the ghetto police as "at times greater than that of the Germans, the Ukrainians and the Latvians
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Ghetto_Police
What is more in such conditions some people became really bad for their countryman...
Anny way. Fact that somebody values Christian life less than Jewish is racist.
Lets say Polish Christian victims haven't received 5% of what Jews received ... what shows only racial policy of German government after WWII. No more no less.
Easy_Terran 3 | 311
3 Jun 2009 / #306
all Poles bravely rescued Jews during the war
The problem is that an average Pole tends to extend the 6.135 Righteous` heroic deeds over the whole Polish nation.
Few of the biggest falsities being sold by the Jews is that all Poles were nothing but nazis, were all szmalcowniks and allowed the Gerries to build the camps actively helping them with that task.
Is the lie (because I agree it's a lie, although I've never heard about that) about 'all Poles helping the Jews' daily spread in newspapers and TV worldwide, manipulated and sold as one and only truth?
The truth is that most Poles remained indifferent and many were glad that Jewish problem was solved by Germans. Only a few helped.
How even dare you to say something like that. Indifferent?
Would you risk your children lives to help a Jew? Would you and other moral judges (sic!) of what Poles should have or should have not done?
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11700
3 Jun 2009 / #307
I don't think it's about what the Germans did...this is well known and the fronts are cleared...it's more about that:
It's from an official holocaust site...Jews are reading that...
...All around us our neighbors and friends were watching and laughing at us like they were at a show. This hurt us more that what the Germans did. ..
...I was scared that they would find out I was Jewish. I was not afraid of the Germans because I was not different looking from anyone else. But I was afraid of my friends, the Poles. ...
It's from an official holocaust site...Jews are reading that...
Easy_Terran 3 | 311
3 Jun 2009 / #308
Funny thing, BBoy, I read similar stories being told by the Poles about their Jewish neighbours, Poles who lived to tell about the Soviet invasion and fun their neighbours had.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11700
3 Jun 2009 / #309
I believe you!
But I think here in such online archives is the reason for the misunderstandings between Poles and Jews I think...
...I could be wrong of course...
But I think here in such online archives is the reason for the misunderstandings between Poles and Jews I think...
...I could be wrong of course...
It is all about money : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek_Edelman
You know why they don't talk about him ... because if he died ... Israel would get money! and he had anti-zionist views. What makes compensation issue more difficult because in case of his death durring wwii they would get money for him not Poland.... Now they would ask for his property and this guy had anti-zionst views...
Sombody made form every person with drop of Jewish blood ... Israels on Polish soil.
As to Polish christian victimes - well I don't see the difference between christain Poles burned in concetration camps and "alleged" Israelis on Polish soil (because they all were zionist). The fact that Germany hasn't copensated Polish state as they compensated Israel ... it is strange ...
What is more in my opinion it has much more to do with PR than morality.
Going back to the subject : haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1090024.html
Comment number 10:
Marek Edelman (born December 31, 1922) is a Polish political and social activist, cardiologist, and last living leader of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. He lives in £ódź.
In the summer of 2007 an Israeli youth group came to £ódź in order to make documentary films with a group of Polish youth. One of the films was made about Marek Edelman, and emphasized the fact that the Israeli youngsters had never heard of Edelman, supposedly because he had been anti-zionist. While the filming, the group met Edelman and interviewed him.
You know why they don't talk about him ... because if he died ... Israel would get money! and he had anti-zionist views. What makes compensation issue more difficult because in case of his death durring wwii they would get money for him not Poland.... Now they would ask for his property and this guy had anti-zionst views...
Sombody made form every person with drop of Jewish blood ... Israels on Polish soil.
As to Polish christian victimes - well I don't see the difference between christain Poles burned in concetration camps and "alleged" Israelis on Polish soil (because they all were zionist). The fact that Germany hasn't copensated Polish state as they compensated Israel ... it is strange ...
What is more in my opinion it has much more to do with PR than morality.
Going back to the subject : haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1090024.html
Comment number 10:
WHAT`S THE BIG UPROAR ABOUT :
They learned from the Israeli banks and the State of Israel. We are also withholding moneis and propwerty that should go to the Holocaust survivors to help them to live their last years with some dignity
They learned from the Israeli banks and the State of Israel. We are also withholding moneis and propwerty that should go to the Holocaust survivors to help them to live their last years with some dignity
The Polish-Jewish historian and the Warsaw Ghetto archivist Emanuel Ringelblum has described the cruelty of the ghetto police as "at times greater than that of the Germans, the Ukrainians and the Latvians
Please, provide a source when you quote someone. Read at least pp. 17-21 for your general knowledge.
Read at least pp. 17-21 for your general knowledge.
As to the source :
^ a b c "Judischer Ordnungsdienst". Museum of Tolerance. Simon Wiesenthal Center. Retrieved on 2008-01-14.
^ deathcamps.org/occupation/warsaw%20ghetto.html
^ Raul Hilberg: The Destruction of the European Jews, Quadrangle Books, Chicago 1961, p. 310.
^ Collins, Jeanna R.. "Am I a Murderer?: Testament of a Jewish Ghetto Policeman (review)". Mandel Fellowship Book Reviews. Kellogg Community College. Retrieved on 2008-01-13.
Avoiding fact that in 1910 ... there was no independent Poland and this arena was under Austrain partion....
Jews from current Ukraine are ... Ukrainan issue as they were murdered there like Poles ...
I am talking about Jews from Poland who lived between Poles.
Before slappering with your tongue around - read what I marked by a link. I did it 2 minutes ago and you already gave me an answer. Read first. And show me the source I was asking you of.
Source:
^ a b c "Judischer Ordnungsdienst". Museum of Tolerance. Simon Wiesenthal Center. Retrieved on 2008-01-14.
^ deathcamps.org/occupation/warsaw%20ghetto.html
^ Raul Hilberg: The Destruction of the European Jews, Quadrangle Books, Chicago 1961, p. 310.
^ Collins, Jeanna R.. "Am I a Murderer?: Testament of a Jewish Ghetto Policeman (review)". Mandel Fellowship Book Reviews. Kellogg Community College. Retrieved on 2008-01-13.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Ghetto_Police
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Ringelblum
Source :
Samuel D. Kassow, Who Will Write Our History? Emanuel Ringelblum, the Warsaw Ghetto, and the Oyneg Shabes Archive, Bloomington & Indianapolis 2007.
Samuel D. Kassow, "Emanuel Ringelblum and Jewish Society", Michael, Institute of Diaspora Studies, Tel Aviv University, 2004
^ a b c "Judischer Ordnungsdienst". Museum of Tolerance. Simon Wiesenthal Center. Retrieved on 2008-01-14.
^ deathcamps.org/occupation/warsaw%20ghetto.html
^ Raul Hilberg: The Destruction of the European Jews, Quadrangle Books, Chicago 1961, p. 310.
^ Collins, Jeanna R.. "Am I a Murderer?: Testament of a Jewish Ghetto Policeman (review)". Mandel Fellowship Book Reviews. Kellogg Community College. Retrieved on 2008-01-13.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Ghetto_Police
In Warsaw Ghetto the Jewish police numbered 2500 people, in Ghetto Litzmannstadt 1200, in Lviv Ghetto 500 people etc.[3]
The Polish-Jewish historian and the Warsaw Ghetto archivist Emanuel Ringelblum has described the cruelty of the ghetto police as "at times greater than that of the Germans, the Ukrainians and the Latvians."
The Polish-Jewish historian and the Warsaw Ghetto archivist Emanuel Ringelblum has described the cruelty of the ghetto police as "at times greater than that of the Germans, the Ukrainians and the Latvians."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Ringelblum
Shortly before the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising Ringelblum together with his family was smuggled out of the Ghetto and hidden on the "Aryan" side. However, on March 7, 1944 his refuge was discovered by the Germans; Ringelblum with his family were executed together with the family of Poles who hid them.
Source :
Samuel D. Kassow, Who Will Write Our History? Emanuel Ringelblum, the Warsaw Ghetto, and the Oyneg Shabes Archive, Bloomington & Indianapolis 2007.
Samuel D. Kassow, "Emanuel Ringelblum and Jewish Society", Michael, Institute of Diaspora Studies, Tel Aviv University, 2004
Am I a Murder?: Testament of a Jewish Ghetto Policeman (the original title is "A History of a Jewish Family During German Occupation") by Calel Perechodnik is an interesting account by a twenty-seven year old ghetto policeman in Otwock, a town near Warsaw. Perechodnik began his memoir on May 7, 1943, while hiding in the home of a Polish woman in Warsaw. The memoir, which is primarily a confession of the guilt he feels for his responsibility in bringing about the deportation of his wife and two year old daughter and their subsequent death in Treblinka (...)
academic.kellogg.edu/mandel/collins_rev.htm
This is the author of this book, who made his wife and kids deported and killed. And you quote his statements?
This is the author of this book, who made his wife and kids deported and killed. And you quote his statements?
I quote Emanuel Ringelblum his statements are repeated in many other books one of them is one you quoted. Book you quoted isn't for all high school students'
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Ringelblum
Anny way I am not truing to make criminals from "all Jews" and I am discussing about something much different.
I quote Emanuel Ringelblum his statements are repeated in many other books one of them is one you quoted.
The statement I was interested in was only from that book, so...
Few of the biggest falsities being sold by the Jews is that all Poles were nothing but nazis, were all szmalcowniks and allowed the Gerries to build the camps actively helping them with that task.
If you read more such articles as this one, about Polish peasants in southern Poland who, for gratification, actively helped Germans round up Jews for Holocaust, you may understand why today Jews have such opinion about Poles.
przeglad-tygodnik.pl/index.php?site=historia&name=121
The misinterpreted history is deeply imprinted in the Polish conscience. The poll results prove my point: wyborcza.pl/1,76842,4898613.html - The most popular belief is that many Poles rescued Jews while the few oppressed them.
Do you know Zofia Nałkowska`s Medaliony?
Przy torze kolejowym - By the railway track:
chomikuj.pl/krask/Polish+literature+in+English+translation
A Jewish woman escapes from a death train but gets wounded by guards. She stays near the track, nobody helps her. Finally a young man shoots her out of pity.
Excerpts:
She was alone when he found her. But slowly people started to appear in that empty space, emerging from the brick kiln and village. Workers, women, and a boy stood fearful, watching her from a distance.
Every once in a while, a small chain of people would form. They'd cast their eyes about nervously and quickly depart. Others would approach, but wouldn't linger for long. They would whisper among themselves, sigh, and walk away.
The day was white. The space open onto everything as far as the eye could see. People had already learned of the incident. It was a time of terror.
Every once in a while, a small chain of people would form. They'd cast their eyes about nervously and quickly depart. Others would approach, but wouldn't linger for long. They would whisper among themselves, sigh, and walk away.
The day was white. The space open onto everything as far as the eye could see. People had already learned of the incident. It was a time of terror.
Well, there was a bit of both and that's it really. Żegota did their part to rescue Jews and many Poles tried in isolated incidents. As ever, it works two ways.
Harry
4 Jun 2009 / #320
The nickname Bloody Luna was a direct reference of her Gestapo-like methods during interrogations
Funny how you constantly go on and on and on about her but give no evidence of her actually being a Jew. As far as you have shown there is no evidence that she ever so much as set foot in a synagogue. However, according to the source which you quote (although for some unknown reason you never quote this bit)m there is plenty of evidence that Mrs Brystiger chose to be a Catholic.
The problem is that an average Pole tends to extend the 6.135 Righteous` heroic deeds over the whole Polish nation.
They also tend to forget that Poland had by far the highest number of Jews which needed help. When one looks at the number of Righteous from each nation per thousand of Jews in that nation in 1939, Poland suddenly goes way way down the list.
[quote=Harry]Like those who tend to forget that there, in Poland, were imposed by Nazis the most draconian laws for helping Jews. Germans used to executed entire families for such help, in practice Germans murdered all inhabitants of the home where Jews were hidden.
They also tend to forget that Poland had by far the highest number of Jews which needed help. When one looks at the number of Righteous from each nation per thousand of Jews in that nation in 1939, Poland suddenly goes way way down the list.
wirtualnapolonia.com/2009/06/02/list-otwarty-marii-fieldorf-czarskiej-do-dr-aliny-calej/
In my opinion , you should thank all the Jews who after the war helped the Polish patriots , persecuted and murdered by the Soviet forces ' public security' just because they wanted to Polish free and sovereign . The Jews had great opportunities to help , because many of them held high positions in the party apparatus and the Soviet Polish police . It is true that my father did not help , but participated in the murder proceedings; wrote indictment and released twice a death sentence for her father [...]
could someone translate this
Harry
4 Jun 2009 / #323
Germans used to executed entire families for such help, in practice Germans murdered all inhabitants of the home where Jews were hidden.
That would be very much the exception rather than the rule. For examples read "Hitler's willing executioners" by Goldhagen or "Ordinary men" by Browning.
You might also want to note that, despite the claims of certain Poles, people in occupoed countries other than Poland were also executed by the nazis for helping Jews.
That would be very much the exception rather than the rule. For examples read "Hitler's willing executioners" by Goldhagen or "Ordinary men" by Browning.
It was a rule. This is what Wiki says:
Poland was the only occupied country during World War II where the Nazis formally imposed the death penalty[39] for anybody found sheltering and helping Jews.[116][117].
And take a look there and there
books.google.com/books?id=lpDTIUklB2MC&pg=PA114&dq=death+penalty+for+hiding+jews+poland&sig=wumrr-KOP-ClsiD4N789kSI_yEo#PPA115,M1
books.google.com/books?id=uceq22StcZUC&pg=PA149&dq=death+penalty+for+hiding+jews+poland&sig=QPuzs4vLrWKyx2agq189mJBjYxc
You might also want to note that, despite the claims of certain Poles, people in occupoed countries other than Poland were also executed by the nazis for helping Jews.
Of course they were executed individually but there weren't collective responsibly in occupied Europe expect invaded Poland.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11700
4 Jun 2009 / #325
Another opinon by a holocaust survivor:
kimel.net/jewpol.html
After the Hitler's attack on Russia, and the onset of the Holocaust, the Poles created a myth, that is still alive today, that the Jews are responsible for Stalin's persecution of the Poles. It was a convenient myth, it enabled the majority of the Poles to stand by and watch the destruction of the Jewish community, waiting to inherit the Jewish properties.
Generally, In Poland the rate of survival of the Jews was abysmal, about 1 percent only, compared to 75 % in France. It is true that only a small minority of Poles actively helped the Germans, [...]
Generally, In Poland the rate of survival of the Jews was abysmal, about 1 percent only, compared to 75 % in France. It is true that only a small minority of Poles actively helped the Germans, [...]
kimel.net/jewpol.html
Harry
4 Jun 2009 / #326
It was a rule.
It was not a rule. With the exception of wikipedia, which I will deal with in a moment, none of your sources say it was a rule. The wikipedia quote links to an article: isurvived.org/Frameset4References-3/-PolishRighteous.html which does not say "but also extended". It actually says "this punishment was quite often imposed not only on the rescuer, but also on his/her family". How surprising to find yet another wikipedia article which doesn't say what the original source says but instead says something which is more favourable to Poles. It is also interesting to note that the author of the original article is ignorant of basic historical facts as she says "about 85% of Poland's Jews either did not speak Polish or spoke a dialect" (which is complete rubbish) and "Gdansk (renamed Danzig)" (the name had been Danzig for a good number of years before 1939!). So she might not be the most reliable of sources.
Another opinon by a holocaust survivor:
as to the miths:
KPP was communistic organistaion in Poland before WWII ...
Jews constituted 53% of the "active members" of the KPP, 75% of its "publication apparatus," 90% of the "international department for help to revolutionaries" and 100% of the "technical apparatus" of the Home Secretariat. In Polish court proceedings against communists between 1927 and 1936, 90% of the accused were Jews. In terms of membership, before its dissolution in 1938, 25% of KPP members were Jews; most urban KPP members were Jews—a substantial number, given an 8.7% Jewish minority in prewar Poland.
Source :
Poland's Holocaust: Ethnic Strife, Collaboration with Occupying Forces and Genocide.... McFarland & Company. pp. 36–37.
Even your Der Spiegel mentioned some graves of ethnic Poles in eastern Poland under Soviet occupation (1939).
Anny way ... I am not going to accuse anny ethinc group.
Germans came to Poland with plan and made it real. Murdered milions of people ... 6 mln citizens ... it is not so easy to clean te hands as long as one ethnic group received huge compensation and other haven't.
Harry, whether you like it or not, deny or not, collective responsibility was a rule.
The difference between Poles and other nations (from western Europe and Baltics) in treatment by German invaders was significant. Dutchmen, Frenchmen, Estonians in Nazi plans were to built one thousand years lasting Third Reich, Poles, just after, Jews, Gypsies and Russians were subhumans to be exterminated. Germans during WW2 didn't care about lives of few Poles more or less. This is why they used a collective responsibility so willingly to decrease potential help to Jews at any price. In this case price was low: a cost of ammo used in such murders. You should also know that first victims of German terror were (mainly) Poles and Jews when Germans started to implement "Intelligenzaktion" in late September 1939 and took 60.000 causalities till spring 1940. Direct terror did not target Jews themselves, but in parallel Poles, what Jews are hardly aware.
It was a common rule, used from 1941/42, when Germans found hidden Jews they usually did not bother with details like special courts and legal procedures, they killed at the place all Jews, and all Poles who could be potentially involved without time consuming investigations and so on. Just because. Subhumans weren't individuals to be protected by law.
The difference between Poles and other nations (from western Europe and Baltics) in treatment by German invaders was significant. Dutchmen, Frenchmen, Estonians in Nazi plans were to built one thousand years lasting Third Reich, Poles, just after, Jews, Gypsies and Russians were subhumans to be exterminated. Germans during WW2 didn't care about lives of few Poles more or less. This is why they used a collective responsibility so willingly to decrease potential help to Jews at any price. In this case price was low: a cost of ammo used in such murders. You should also know that first victims of German terror were (mainly) Poles and Jews when Germans started to implement "Intelligenzaktion" in late September 1939 and took 60.000 causalities till spring 1940. Direct terror did not target Jews themselves, but in parallel Poles, what Jews are hardly aware.
It was a common rule, used from 1941/42, when Germans found hidden Jews they usually did not bother with details like special courts and legal procedures, they killed at the place all Jews, and all Poles who could be potentially involved without time consuming investigations and so on. Just because. Subhumans weren't individuals to be protected by law.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11700
4 Jun 2009 / #329
holocaustsurvivors.org/data.show.php?di=record&da=encyclopedia&ke=107
kimel.net/poland.html
Is that so?
What do you say about these personal accounts Lukas?
Do you think they are not reliable?
The Germans robbed the Poles of their political rights, but the German extended some of their rights and gave them some opportunities.
They gave them the right to abuse the Jews, to become Jew Hunters, to enjoy a spectacles of Jews being driven to their deaths, or being burned in the flames of the Ghettos.
They gave them the right to abuse the Jews, to become Jew Hunters, to enjoy a spectacles of Jews being driven to their deaths, or being burned in the flames of the Ghettos.
There was a saying among the Poles under the occupation: " The Germans will throw [...]"
kimel.net/poland.html
Is that so?
What do you say about these personal accounts Lukas?
Do you think they are not reliable?
Harry
4 Jun 2009 / #330
Harry, whether you like it or not, deny or not, collective responsibility was a rule.
Pity that you can not produce any credible sources which say that it was a rule. In fact the evidence says that it was not.
Direct terror did not target Jews themselves, but in parallel Poles, what Jews are hardly aware.
I can't speak for any Jews, but I have been to the cemetery in Palmiry and seen for myself the crosses and Jewish tombstones there.
KPP was communistic organistaion in Poland before WWII ...
Want to mention what happened to the members of the KPP?