Polish flag over the Reichstag first?

Germany lost the war because this psycho Hitler attacked too many countries at the time and because of a very cold winter in the SU.


This is what I was repeatedly saying in this thread.


Well, Hitler messed it all up himself.


Still waving ;-)

OK. Then I ask that posters don't repeat themes and posts from other threads.

And how do you know that for sure?

No official or convincing unofficial sources that i know of say otherwise.

That's exactly why I believe it is true, doesn't it make sense the Soviet would want to erase that from history? I mean the guy who presumably did it was shot.

I always wondered how the war had turned out if Poland joined Germany on it's crusade, Poland could have provided millions of soldiers to the cause, plus having a large neighbor on a friendly footing would have be very beneficial to Germany in the long run.

Can't we tie the discussion about the polish flag to some worshipping of Prussia???

I'm in!!!

Unlikely since Poland was anti-Nazi and anti-Communist, but if the soviets attacked first and Germany wasn't ran by Hitler then it could be possible.

Whatever... Result is what matters.

NEVER underestimate Russia! It is to be respected and feared.

The great wise Prussian himself said:

Except that great wise Prussian saw the world without Poles canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/4757
And i wonder if this was true "On April 24, 1939, when Hitler terminated his non-aggression pact with Poland, he was furious that Poland rejected his offer of friendship and alliance.

Hitler made such an offer for the first time as early as August 5, 1935 when he declared that good Polish-German relations were of primary importance to him. He wanted a military alliance with Poland and Japan against the Soviet Union to which he had no land access. Poland's territory constituted a physical barrier between Germany and the Soviets.

Apparently Hitler's "best case scenario" was to attack the Soviets with some 600 divisions: 220 German, 200 Japanese, 100 Polish and 80 of other nations,
without having to fight on the western front. He hoped to mobilize in Poland some 10% of the population, or over three and half million men.

When Poland refused, Hitler put in practice Bismarck's plans and committed mass murder in Poland."

Oh please, if Bismarck had wanted mass murdered Poles he would had done so.
Instead Poles could plan their resistance openly in their own free polish media, had their own representants in the prussian Reichstag and a growing middle class which got so wealthy and influential to make wrinkles on german nationalists foreheads as Prussia poured money and material into the provinces. An industrial development Poland should still profit from even decades later.

WHAT A MASS MURDER!

And no mass expellations either...

I wished you Poles would get a grip on your anti-prussian diatribes. Prussia was the most developed and progressive country in Europe at the time of the partitions, their education system and schools where unrivaled, in Prussia lived Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Hugenots and many others quite freely...Poles profited from that too. Many immigrated from other provinces to live and work there...must have been really horrible!

Oh wait..."Kulturkampf"...yeah, what a horrorshow. Bismarck trying to secularize the country, to losen the grip of the religious nutters on the education and official institutions. Something EVERY modern country strives for today. But then, german and polish catholics can whine together...it was a German trying to kill Bismarck for that.

What else..hmmm..wait...the horror show of trying to force a common language as official language for the country..Poland NEVER ever tried the same...of course not! One official language to be used in schools and offices...how criminal!!!

What about his Germanisation of the Province of Posen?

It failed!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation_of_the_Province_of_Posen#Failure_of_the_policy


How horrible!!!! What do you think would Hitler had done?

Yeah...sure....they are both the same...

Prussia was a country with strict laws and order, for ALL Prussians...that meant also the Poles!

query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F30C10FB3A5414728DDDAE0994D8415B818CF1D3


As Hitler had done....

Maybe you're right and Polish historians exaggerate things, as if Poles didn't try and Polonize Lithuanians or Ukrainians themselves. Hitler? He would have done this...

When?

Ask Nathan?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonization

Nat doesn't know ****!
Anything of this kind could had happened after 1921, so your Bismarck was first there!
Anyhow, why are you harboring illusion that Prussia was something progressive at times ?
Could you be more specific ?

German chauvinism, they're raised that way, even the good ones.

Also BB yes doing stuff to Poles in Posen was horrible, Prussia invaded Poland and just because it was stealing instead of killing doesnt make it any better.

He was a traitor and.. he did a lot of thigns to the guy in charge saying he should get what he got...

I think their hinting at bringing Polish-Jews into the area and only letting Poles or "polonized" Ruthinians "governing" or doing administative work

Illusions? The books are all out there to read ;)

amazon.com/Iron-Kingdom-Downfall-Prussia-1600-1947/dp/0674031962/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1294018070&sr=8-1


Bismarck was the first in the world who implemented welfare laws for the workers and the old....something all prussian subject, also Poles, profited from.

So BB you mean Prussia did not practice institutionalised theft, did not allow aristocratic nepotism, did not starve its factory workers, did not opress polish culture, did not invade and steal polish heritage including stuff like the Crown Jewels?

There was no anti-polonism or anti-semitism in Prussia? No it was not progressive above other western countries and it had significantly more dark sides.

As much as did you in Ukraine...;)
Or Lithuania...

I think most people had a good life in Prussia...and since the citizens were such a mischpoke to begin with it didn't matter what ethnie you were.

Millions of Poles became Prussians over the time...


Sure all existed. There are no perfect countries...

But show me an opressing country where the opressed actually go richer, have the same rights as the other citizens, and their country gets developed by the opressor....you won't find many examples!

Sorry mate Ukraine was never a country, we were.
We ddint invade Ukraine, Prussia invaded Poland.

Lithuani tho, it was a mistake no argument there.


Unless you were a Pole fighting to win back your independence or an industrial worker.


Very few really, t'was a major problem for Prussia, Poles would do business with, learn german, serve in the army but in the end they still refused to drop their heritage.

If you'll accept the month of December of 1941 as being the end of 1941 then that fact is largely ignored because it is wrong.

Comparative Strengths of Combat Forces, Eastern Front, 1941-1945:
1 Dec 1941
------------
Soviets: 4,197,000
Germans: 2,700,000 (Eastern Front) 67,000 (Northern Norway) 500,000 Finns & 140,000 Rumanians.

1.29:1 manpower advantage to the Soviets.

Table C, page 302
When Titans Clashed - David Glantz & Jonathan House

....I miss my Prussia... I'm living in the wrong age... :(

*slinks into corner*

No, the Germans were fighting in the Atlantic, North Africa, over the skies of England (the Blitz) as well as continental Europe (the beginnings of the western allied bomber campaign).

U-boats hardly contributed to war in Russia?


5 divisions.


Nope, they shifted forces from BoB to Russia.


You're kidding right? A few Blenheims?

So yeah now that we established that Germans had some submarines and a small expeditionary forces in Africa we can say they devoted all of their available resources to fighting Russia.

Active two front war begins with Sicily in 1943, prior to that Germany is fighting Russia and Russia only, everything else is a total sideshow.

Your source implies that Axis forces melted by more than half a milion which is...a joke? I understand there can be a huge disparity in claims but lets not quote extremes?

Russia at the time of the winter offensives has 1.5 milion soldiers to Axis 3.2 milion, in early 1942 five new armies are formed with a grand total of 1 milion men and reinforced to a grand total of 3 milion by the fall of 1942, thats according to Berlitz, Porwit, Szymański and Tormasov in their respective works.

All throught 1942 Russians are outnumbered, they bring 2 more milion men to the party in early 1943, a milion more in 44 and the six milion figure is the amount of active troops till 45, to Axis 4.2 milion active troops.

But in late 41 till late 42 Russians while still having more equipment are numericaly inferior.