Well, here I am :) I've been pretty busy last few days, so again I apologize for coming back this late.
First of all, despite of what I've been reading from some in this thread, this thread is by no means intended to be anti-Polish. It merely wants to discuss a period in Polish history that hasn't been in the spotlights that often. Some have questioned my motives and felt the need to discuss me as a person in this thread. A few of them were the same that told me to learn more about Polish history. Besides the fact that I find it highly pathetic to discuss the person who starts a thread which may not be to everyone's liking, that's exactly what I was doing by starting this thread. I still think that all subjects concerning Polish history should be open for discussion.
A few have suggested that my motive was to show that Poland also wasn't clear of the fascist/National Socialistic wave that spread out over Europe in the 1930's. This is for 50 per cent true. Especially when on this forum, so -called "connaisseurs" claim there was no such thing whatsoever in Poland. The presence of Endecja, the popular name for the National Democrats, ND does prove that Poland was also swept by this virus at the time.
Yet nobody has decisively proved that it wasn't there. While some make a decent effort to rebuke the claim or try to minimalise it or analyse it, some, as expected, called it lies and anti-Polish propaganda or even blamed the Jews themselves for what happened.
Also I learned that the myth that Communism was Jewish, a fable that somewhere in the previous era came into existence is still very vivid in the Polish perception. But can anybody explain why this is ONLY in Poland the case? It may have existed in Russia at one time, but they have overgrown that idea, yet a lot of Poles haven't when it comes to the Jews.
Another person said that I would never be able to grasp the context in which things happened. I like to think of myself as smart enough to be capable to do so, but I am not waiting for a nationalistic version of events as they happened.
That should be it. It's late and I'm nearly off to bed. But I wanted to react to a few selected posts anyway:
I would like to point about that I didn't insult you in anyway as you requested but you made ironic remarks which could be read as insulting.
I didn't ask not to insult, but keep it a decent discussion. And besides, since you regard being called Einstein and being mentioned as one the world's smartest ppl, I would indeed call it an insult - for Einstein.
Endecja never exactly ruled!
"Rise to power" doesn't necessarily mean "being in the government". It can also mean very influential and there is no denying that ND were influential quite a bit in those days.
Jews, Ukrainians, Belorussians and Poles faced much worse fate in years to come.
If you're referring to WW2, which I think you are, then indeed, nothing what happened before can be compared to that. But then again, it wasn't in any country in Europe as bad before the war than what happened DURING the war.
Polish actions were completely legal, what was illegal was communist/jewish practices aimed at destruction of Poland.
Of course. As long as it's aimed at the Jews, everything is ok and everything they do is not ok, at least, following your reasoning and agenda.
I have suggested reading material to MG in the past which he has ignored, and he continues his antisemitism crusade, whatever that is. Funny, that a fake Jew is so concerned about Polish 'antisemitism'.
See, this is exactly the thing that disqualifies you as eligable discussion partner. How do you know, for instance, that I didn't read the stuff you presented?
I suggest MG begs his Indian employers to give him some time off to read books not wikipedia or take a course in Polish to access info that is reliable.
Hm, wonder what all the ppl I employ would say about that remark? And besides this, this is just the answer of an American who claims to know about Poland. Hm, as far as I know Steve Ballmer is the new CEO, hence my employer. and there are no Indians in the BOD. And just for your information: I probably earn more than you :) I know it must hurt you thoroughly :)) Of course it does as you never leave any opportunity unseized to try and put me down. How pathetic a little man you are. And besides all that, sure, only Polish material is reliable, eh? All the other historians from all across the globe are all dead wrong and only the Polish are correct and then not even ALL the Polish historians are right (Gross is of course a traitor as he writes uncomfortable things), only the ones that glorify Poland and put Poles and Poland either in a glorious role OR in the victim role solely. Bad Poles? They don't exist.
In other words you ask what has brought here MG?
He always asks that question. Let me tell you sth about Jola: he is an American who lives now in Poland, now that it's safe. When it wasn't, he had his butt safely in America. Some role model he is :)
MG why don't ask some elder polish jew how looked life in 30s in Poland?
Have you ever seen Shoah from Claude Lanzmann?
As for Endecja - they were terrible nationalists, that's true, but aren't you going too far in demonizing the situation of Jews in Poland?
I'm not demonizing anything or anybody here, just want an overview of things what happened in those 4 years and I summed up the things that i found. I also found that this line of thinking in those days mainly was common among the Polish bourgeoisie, youngsters and students. Funny enough, ND tried to grasp for the Polish lower-class workers, but they weren't successful in that respect. I read about how they felt sorry for their poor Jewish neighbour and helped them where they could. This was explained by the argument that Jews weren't necessarily competitors for the working-class Poles, not a direct thread. Apparently they were for the middle-class and the young Poles.
Is it not true that nearly half of the urban population was Jewish and a third of the doctors, lawyers and other intellectualists were Jewish? Isn't it true that there were mostly-Jewish or even all-Jewish parties in the Polish government?
For time's sake, let's see what Wiki has to say about this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland#Growin g_anti-Semitism
While Wiki may not always be reliable, you might wanna read this:
history.binghamton.edu/resources/bjoh/PolesAndJews.htm
I think you confuse opposition to Zionism with anti-semitism most of the time
No I don't. What, for example, has having to sit on very seperate benches when going to a lecture at University to do with Zionism? It has nothing to do with Zionism.
And if Polish Jews, in a majority Catholic Poland, welcomed Soviet jews, when it was widely known that soviet jews were a large part of the bolshevik revolution, responsible in large part for the destruction of the Christian Russia that the Polish people previously knew
This is about the biggest myth throughout Polish history of the 20th century. It's time it got laid to rest.
but it really wasn't so fervent until close to the 1970's
Are you sure about that? There are pictures in existence, showing students in Lodz demonstrating for those so-called Ghetto Benches. What are Ghetto Benches? Simply, seperate benches where the Jewish students HAD to sit during lecture. It may not have been all official, but it was there.
His nemesis, Piłsudski, was always more for choice
But Pilsudski died in 1935.
I think what he was trying to imply was that Germany was not the only country to have "Nazi" like supporters. And that actually the attitude of many Germans during that time were the exact same as the attitude for most of the Poles at the time.
For 50 per cent this is true. The other half was just inspired by a desire to get a full picture, good AND bad, of Polish history. Polish history is not a chain of glorious events only :)
and most of europe of that time...
All of Europe, including Poland :)
and not to forget that reports like this coming out of Russia were widely known by 1935-36.
Hilarious source you present me :) Let's see the highlight of it:
The hub of world Jewish anti-Christ power, the financial and industrial power best described in Rev. 18:11-, is the AMERICAN JEWISH COMMITTEE with its B'nai B'rith brotherhood, and its "secret police", smear and ruin arm, the Anti-Defamation League. After having pushed a reluctant USA into World War II--to spread Communism across the earth, and with its first world base, Soviet Russia, as our "ally", it was decided to crush all ANTI-COMMUNISTS by trying them as "Fascists, Nazis".
I thought that was very funny, didn't you? :)
"Individual revolutionary leaders of Jewish origin - such as Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev and Sverdlov - played a conspicuous part in the revolution of November, 1917 which enabled the Bolsheviks to take possession of the state apparatus."
You have forgotten that it was actually the German Kaiser William 2 who made the Bolshevik Revolution pssbl. It weren't the Jews, it was Germany: Zimmermann, Wilhelm 2 and the German Foreign minister, I forget his name. There were a few Jews among the Bolsheviks, the majority however, was by far (Christian) Russian and not Jewish. Yet the Jews get to hear it all the time. Must be some other, deeper reason for that as I never hear that the Russians started the Bolshevik Revolution.
Why deny the facts?
Good question. Any Dutch you ask will admit that there was a National Socialist Movement in NL in the 1930's and during the war, as will any Belgian, French, Norwegian and so on. Some Poles however, deny and I am curious as to why that is.
"We have exterminated the property owners in Russia. We are going to do the same thing in Europe and America." [The Jew, December 1925, Zinobit]
This is just nonsense. Not written by Jews as it makes no sense to blacken yourself further when you know that the others already hate you and are actively practicing anti semitism on you.
You have taken that quote from a Neo Nazi website "French Connection" what a sad person you are.
Wouldn't surprise me. I've caught her a few times before using utter questionable sources as proof. The other link leads to a sensationalist's conspiracy theorists' site. Not really serious, therefore. Oh, and it's hard to miss the quote as it is the first line and it's seperated from the rest, you can't miss it. But we have landed in cheehaw's favourite waters again.
Mistake 1 - there were no such a party like endecja - its common abbreviation.
There was however party called National Democracy!
Mistake2 - that party never come to power in Poland!
What are you trying to prove with "mistake 1"? Endecja was the name by which the ND was most commonly known, it's totally acceptable to use this term therefore.
As for "mistake 2", pls see my first response to Zed.
Endecja - State Sponsored Anti Semitism 1935 - 1939. So this thread sells lie !
As for the sentence state sponsored anti-Semitism is false !
Again, what is your point? I don't sell anything, I ask a question and indeed, the question is enough to get some on their hind legs, which doesn't surprise me at all from you.
It would be fair to describe it as a movement and not an outright party.
From the same Wiki as earlier, for time reasons:
With the influence of the Endecja partygrowing, antisemitism gathered new momentum in Poland and was most felt in smaller towns and spheres in which Jews came into direct contact with Poles, such as in Polish schools or on the sports field
Let's assume it was a movement. But for a movement it had influence, a lot more influence after Pilsudski died. And that leads immediately to the next question: if they weren't a party, but were capable of influencing masses (with the help of the Catholic Church, let's not forget that), why weren't they capable to mobilize spirits before and during Pilsudski? I know Joe was popular, but yet I don't believe that he was popular everywhere in every layer of Polish society.
It might be more fun to discuss Israel - State Sponsored Anti Semitism 1948 -
I'm pretty sure the original topic is much more fun. I know, it's easier to deflect everything to Israël and point out what a terrible state that is and turn attention away from a not-so-nice episode of Polish history, but that's not gonna happen :)
we could discuss the palestinian issue, gaza, the left bank, Lebanon..
We could, but we won't.
Tomorrow I'm off, then I have some more time to go in depth on certain things, for now, this will have to do. I haven't seen any conclusive dismissal of the presence of anti semitism instigated by Endecja in the four years immediately preceding the German invasion of Poland.
>^..^<
M-G (tired)
