Battle of Grunwald 1410 The biggest medieval battle. Germans smashed.

Ukraine was growing within the confines of Poland, culture, civilisation, mutual political goals, same ethnicity, same enemies and a long time of an intimate alliance.

So...Ukrainians are Poles? And vice versa???

Hah no but what Nathan and most of Ukraine tries to escape from by making up history (you should read their history books they're as good as Russian ones) much of their culture and civilisation is what they inherited from us.

Think ancient Romans and Germans, much of what you built your civilisation on comes from Rome, without Rome you'd be on the level of early Slavic tribes you conquered, the same with Poland and Ukraine.

Ukraine as a region lacked cohesivness, cultural integrity and civilisation that brings with it technology etc, Poland brought it and Poland developed it through the centuries, in the end when Ukrainians emancipated in the 19th century they built on foundations inherited from Poland.

And just like Germanics were intimately tied with Rome living in and around it, defending it and fighting it so were Ukrainians with Poland and to make the analogy even more similar both Germanics and Ukrainians contributed to the fall of the old empires they were part of (though Ukrainians were a tad less instrumental then say Russia or Germany or Poles themselves).

So...Poland is...Rome? ;)

I mean technological advance is one thing but a distinctive cultural heritage is another.
As the germanic tribes came into contact with Rome they already had such and were seen as very distinctive from Rome and every known Roman (Tacitus).

I was asking if the Ukrainians had such already as they came in contact with Poles...(I'm so clueless it's not nice I know)

What I really want to know where this "fraternal" should come from? Austria or Bavaria are probably also "fraternal" but they aren't hot on it to make a big story out of it, especially as politics put a border between them...

Or take France and Germany! Germania and Gaul first then the Reich of the Franks....the same founder in Charlemagne/Karl der Große....for a millennia sharing the same empire...but later arch enemies...now again allies, partners, even chums.

We share so much but nobody would call us "fraternal" I think...

i like this thread. It reminds me how Germans were smashed and i love it. i just like it

Poljaci. Thank you for great joy of Grunwald

Have you been drinking again, Crow? :)

If you go far far back in history then yes
I consider them as material of calling themselves Polish if they want to, but if they don't want to (heck their own choice they don't want it fine) it's their problem not mine :)


Ahhh I celebrate it every Fricking day ^^


O_o

Can you get some more information about the Battle of Berestechko?

From what I read it was a 3 day battle, the tatars leaving on the 3rd day....

The cossack infantry then held out until July 10th (10 days). Before the artillery finally wore them down.

Thanks

If someone doesnt delete my post again...

The exact opposing forces are still subject to debate since Poles inflated both numbers and Ukrainians dont have historical written records of it, the most reasonable estimates are:

Poles:
30.000 noble levy.
25.000 thousand regular troops.
10.000 Royal corps.

Grand total 65.000 troops.

Cossack/Tatar alliance.

80.000 Cossacks.
20.000 Tartars.

Grand total 100.000

The Cossacks were commanded by Chmielnicki and Tartars by chan Islam Girej. The Poles were commanded by king John Casimir, present were also both polish crown hetmans Mikołaj Potocki and Marcin Kalinowski.

Other polish high commanders were prince Jeremi Wiśniowiecki and Stanisław Lanckoroński.

The battle lasted 3 days from june 28 to june 30.

28. June.

The forces met at the town of Beresteczko, the first day of battle opened with light cavalry skirmishes.

Polish noble levy and noble dragoons met with several companies of Cossack cavalry, the Poles quickly gained the upper hand but Islam Girej threw several large units of mounted Tartars into the fight.

Polish commanders commited a noble dragoon regiment of Jerzy Lubomirski and a light sign regiment of Aleksander Koniecpolski, despite this Cossacks and Tartars repelled the polish attack.

The battle escalated as polish light cavalry was being slowly pushed back in the direction of its army positions.

As the evening neared Poles responded with a massed cavalry charge of armoured and winged hussar units under Czarniecki and Wiśniowiecki, these insantly swept the Cossack and Tartar light cavalry from the field but further advantage could not be taken due to the late hour.

29. June.

Emboldened by the success of their previous day countercharge the Poles prepared for the general assault of the allied positions, all of Polish cavalry (approximately 35.000) was assembled in front of the camp in battle formation.

The polish commanders moved their units too far from the camp however effectively preventing the powerfull royal artillery from supporting the fight.

At the same time Cossack-Tartar alliance was crossing Plaszówka river with a 45.000 strong cavalry unit, the largest cavalry engagement of the XVII century was about to begin.

The Plaszówka crossings were guarded by several companies of Zamoyski dragoons, after a brief firefight they fell back faced with overwhelming numerical superiority, the allies have crossed the river, at noon all 45.000 allied cavalry assembled at the other end of the plain facing the polish formations.

At around 12:30 Tartars and Cossacks begin assaulting the left flank of the polish army under Jeremi Wiśniowiecki with significant success, several polish dragoon regiments are rolled back under pressure.

At around 13:00 a flanking charge of the light sign regiment of Stanislaw Rewera Potocki annihilates several tartar sotnias and forces the allies to stop the attacks.

The Cossack and Tartar forces previously attacking the flank join with significant reinforcements and attack the polish centre where light sign regiments of Szczawiński and Lanckoroński are broken and scattered.

The allies then attempt to attack the fortified main polish camp but the artillery and infantry massed behind the fortifications stopped the attacks dead, flanking charges by heavy polish cavalry supported by dragoon fire result in extreme allied losses.

15:00

Cossacks and Tartars flee across the field pursued by Polish armored and light sign cavalry, however at one point the Poles fail to break off the pursuit and reach the main body of the Cossack/Tartar forces, the allies quickly encircle the Poles causing severe losses.

A royal winged hussar unit is severely decimated, Jan Sobieski is briefly captured.

Polish reaction is instant, Lubomirski leading 3000 Winged Hussars, Arquebusiers and Armored breaks the ring of allied forces and allows the decimated polish units to retreat back to the main line.

However the Tartars do not stop there, exploiting the gap between the polish centre and the engaged forces of the right wing they attack the centre and again decimate Lanckorońskis regiment, the battle rages for a full hour before a counterattack of light signs, noble levy and the regiment of Stanislaw Rewera manages to throw Tartars back.

At the end of the day Poles lost approximately 300 men and failed to gain any advantage, the second day belonged to the Cossack/Tartar alliance.

June 30.

As the armies stood ready to resume the fighting the allies were unaware of the polish change of plans, this day the full might of the army, the infantry and artillery would be brought to bear.

The army was reasembled, regiments of german type infantry (polish infantry trained and armed in the western fashion) and regiments of hungarian type infantry were led out from the camp, artillery was positions outside of fortifications.

The german and hungarian type infantry were assembled in a checkerboard pattern together with dragoons, backed by royal guard infantry and companies of reitars and arquebusiers.

11:00

Seeing that Cossacks are fortyfing their Tabor (defensive mobile camp) Wiśnowiecki leading 18 companies of winged hussars and armored and flanked by two light sign regiments charges the right wing of the Cossack army.

The countercharge of the allies is trampled into the ground instantly by heavy polish units, the infantry is overrun seconds later and the Poles start attack the Tabor itself, the situation is rescued by the flanking attack of Nurrad-din who's tartar cavalry manages to stop the polish assault.

Polish king John Casimir insantly sends units of levy and light signs, £ęczycki and Sieradzki regiments allow prince Jeremi to redirect his attack to Nurrad-dins relief force completely destroying it.

This engagement allows the scattered cossack regiments to rally however, when the tartar force is destroyed Wiśniowiecki again attacks the cossack line and this time completely destroys the defending regiments effectively besieging the tabor camp.

At the same time 15.000 tartars under Amurat are still not engaged, this force had to be destroyed.

Polish royal corpse is ordered forward at around 14:00.

Moving in checkerboard pattern infantry and dragoons stop every 40 meters to fire, supported by light artillery the entire vast formation of 7000 men moves slowly across the field, Amurat attacks the royal division time and again but is repelled by a hail of fire suffering horrendous losses.

At the same time Wiśniowiecki is again repelled from the Tabor by Nurrad-din and forced to fall back to the royal division, however at this point many of the most valuable Cossack cavalry have been slaughtered.

The tartars whos losses by now reach half their total force and continue to lose hundreds of men, the inability of Cossacks to aid in the assault having lost much of their cavalry and the slowly approaching royal division finally lead to tartar Chans nervous breakdown.

At 16:30 an event that would finally break the spirit of the Tartars happened, the Polish kings retinue moving behind the ever advancing royal division was shot at by a small tartar unit.

In retribution polish artillery general Przyjemski located the Chans command positions and ordered heavy artillery barrage killing most of the tartar brass in one single strike, the tartars were finally broken, Islam Girej ordered retreat, Chmielnicki attempting to stop the retreating tartars is abducted by them.

Initially the tartars retreat slowly but a massed charge of polish cavalry together with rolling artillery barrages change this retreat into a panicked bloody rout, the tartars flee from the field.

The battle was over.

The siege of Tabor.

After the battle the Poles besieged the camp, siege artillery caused horrific losses each day as Cossacks attempted to build a crossing across the river Plaszówka, an assault was imminent the only thing the Poles waited for were superheavy siege guns from Lwów and Brody.

On the morning of the 10 July Cossack commander Ivan Bohun left the camp with several companies of cavalry for reconessaince, the starving and frightened Cossacks interpreted it as their commander abandoning them, panic broke out, polish army used it to storm the camp.

30.000 Cossacks were killed, among them women and children.

The total Tartar-Cossack death toll in the battle and siege was over 70.000 and 15.00 captured, Poles lost 850 men.

I had to abandon loads of details but the detailed description would go into 100+ pages.

from the prelude to one other battle that occurred before Battle of Grunwald

"My brother, tell me next where I can find
The tent of that Sultan Murad
For I have sworn to Serbian prince Lazarus
To slaughter like a pig this foreign Tsar
And put my foot upon his squealing throat."
- Milos Obilic, Serbian Voivode of Knights [The Battle of Kosovo, 1389]


thank you.

Yes, this is about true Sarmatian, Serbian Milos Obilic, who even captured managed to kill (while battle was still ongoing) Sultan Murad, only Turkish Sultan that was killed on the battlefields of Europe. Just, in reality, by historical rapports, immediately after killing of Sultan, Obilic was cut by Sultan`s bodyguards- axe bearers.

Milos Obilic was founder of the Dragon Order, that was based on Sarmatian (Proto Slavic) heritage. Much later, Polish King Jan Sobieski was Grand Master of this same order.



Note Dargon figure on the Obilic`s helmet

Sokrates wrote some information on the battle and numbers on a similar thread [mine actually]:
The Grunwald Battle: Today is 600th anniversary of the greatest medieval battle. - page 3


- Then you must love 1525 anniversary (10 April 1525)...

No!
And brotherly because bulk of they ethnicity comes from Poles after 1569!

I don't know about all that, Poles and Ukrainians did mix but some but i don't think most of them are mixed with us

Well, they are unfortunately, that just illustrate that decisive is not a blood but culture !



See above map!Can you read it ?
I will use the map to explain to you demographic and ethics issues on the territories constituting nowadays Ukraine. However not today, good night! Just let me know whatever you are interested in my proposition !

I don't understand what this map is supposed to show me.

Look again !

Well said Sokrates, i think Nathan reads some nationalistic history books that tell only good things about his people. That's what really happened in the battle

Always amusing to see Poles boasting about their military prowess! It's like watching the English boast about English football (although they at least did once win it all).

Umm if you knew about our history you'd know we did win in many wars, often on our own.

Sure you did: that's why Poland kept disappearing from the map of the world.

You're ignorant and are making yourself look stupid, read a bit about all our history we won most of our wars in almost every engagement being outnumbered.









Please note: Video in this thread should really be in English.

Somehow sad that Poles (think they) have to go back so long in history to find something they can be proud of...

nonsense. In every century Poles achieved something magnificent for mankind, no matter all their hard circumstances. But when we are at topic, think again about that Grunwald battle. Event happened in time when many countries even didn`t exist. USA for example. That old is Poland. Even much much older.

wow, older than the USA? THAT old? incredible... ;))
but yes, of course Poles achieved other things, too