Polish aristocrats - would be better off if we had Polish magnate families?

I don't think it is possible. PF treatment doesn't seem to improve your condition. You have szlachticz roots, that's, probably, why, since szlachta were a bunch of corrupted feudal morons. Btw, "arrogant" has 2 "r"s :) Liberum veto - give me a break ;) - a discount to buy millions. Invention of your "noble" ancestors who had nothing in mind, but to sell their country for a nice house on Wisla, don't giving the sh*t about the rest. How is your coat of arms? Did you make a tattoo of it on your uneducated ars*?

Your nation (Ukrainians) never had any elite whatsoever, you still dont, your people are barely even a nation and all you have to fall back in your weak poverty stricken state is petty fascism and saber rattling.

Even after Poland fell from power its still richer, safer, has more recognition and manages to achieve more and faster then your third world of a country Nathan, once pig herders always pig herders.

By the way did you repair that awfull street in the centre of Lwów? It really hurts to see an old polish city so dillapidated, you guys should respect our property, its only temporarily in your hands you know! :)

I think the "Kresy" were always the colonial outposts of Poland.
Lwow/Lviv/Lemberg was not exactly Polish - was it? And neither it was Ukrainian/Russian...
I think it was quintessential Habsburg. Multicultural Franz-Jozef.

Given that more then 90% of public and historical buildings, all of the roads, sewage system were built or commisioned by Poles and 550 years of its 650~ years the city had a 60-70% (depending on the period) polish majority its a 100% polish city.

It was built by Ruthenians but it was made into one of the greatest cities of central Europe by Poles, its not the case of cities like Gdańsk where you can't pinpoint who's city exactly it is, Lwów is historically as polish as Kraków or Warsaw.


Yes but its ruling elite was composed almost exclusively by Poles, even under the Habsburg rule all mayors of Lwów were Poles, Lwów didnt have a single ukrainian mayor for more then half a millenium, it had four Germans, two Jews, a Lithuanian and more then fourty Poles.


Poles moved in there when ruthenian people were nothing short of warring tribals, Poland was the only statehood this backwards region knew for centuries.

Of course, we had and have. Ukrainians lost millions of its intelligensia murdered (let tehy rest peacefully) by Russian and Soviet regimes, but we will recover sooner or later.

It is interesting, though, that while the topic is about Polish aristocrasy, you invent fascism and some rattling in my country. You, probably, don't know who the economy and existance of your country was kept on. It wasn't your "szlachta", lazy horse-riding bastards who treated people like sh*t and struggled for their country just to protect their property and status. Of course, in Ukraine it was identical. I have never denied it. Simply, the topic is about Polish counterpart.


Well, it is constantly under construction since it marvellously attracts a lot of Polish tourists. English and German tourists I met before are really interested in museums and churches. People like you enjoy construction sites when visiting a city. The town council proposed to satisfy everyone, so for special visitors there is always a nice demolition site to go to. Later, when you are old, you might show your grandkids: "O.hhh kids, thiiiis isss a demolittin site IIIII was on while viiiiisitiiing Lviv. Isn't it beauuutifuuul". "Yeh, old fart, give us a break. Who takes a picture of a tractor when visiting a 760 year old city". Don't worry about the answer - you won't hear it anyway ;)


That's true, only the pigs are gone...

Most intelligentsia in pre WW1 and interwar Ukraine was Polish with a smaller percentage of Jews and Germans, Ukrainian participation in the educated elite was neglible, Ukrainians as an ethnicity occupied the lower echelons of society, your peoples elite could be counted in thousands, not even tens of thousands.


Who?!


Salt mines, silver mines, wood, tar, cattle, agricultural exports while having a huge share of the overall exports were not the financial powerhouse of Poland, sorry buddy but polish economy was not riding on the backs of peasants:)))


So tell me Nathan why did our nobility willingly relinquished their status in the may constitution i they were such bastards?

Also for lazy bastards they won a lot of wars, wars are hard work, winning them even harder.


Rubbish, its a complete utter ruin, you turned a city which was called "small Paris" across Europe and changed it into a dillapidated dump.

You're so afraid of Lwóws polish history your people willingly devastate and destroy all the old polish architecture, sculptures of great Poles etc, at least when we took over Wrocław we didnt vandalise anything to do with its german past but then again we Poles have a 1000 years of history to fall back on, you have what? One semi-succesfull rebellion nearly four centuries ago, no culture, no heritage, no civilisation, no elites.

That made my day :)))))))))))))))))))) There is one statue left of you, though, but we gave it as a gift to Poltava Agrarian Academy ;)


The question like that simply testifies that you are a complete "0" in Ukrainian history, culture, literature and if you think I will be wasting my time on filling the abyss of ignorance in your szlachticz brain, you are deeply mistaken ;)


They were always behind the infantry. Horses had to be fed, cleaned, raised, armor to be made, fat ass of the rider also fed, cleaned, wiped, even freaking boots from "Ogniem i Mieczem" movie - there had to be someone to take them off lazy d*ck! Isn't it something? And the bastard had the only thing to do: make his horse gallop like crazy, killing the enemy under its hoofs while the freak on top swang with a sabre a few times. Quite a service to the country in comparison to regular more important people.


Yes, I read Don Quixot too. Interesting story ;)

Gdansk/Danzig and Wroclaw/Breslau are only Polish for a short time in history. Each time I am there the architecture so much reminds me of my native Antwerp.

In 1945 both cities were overwhelmingly German.

No argument there but 1945 was just a year.


During the golden age of the city both Poles and Germans were big on Dutch architects so thats possible.


Wrocław yes, Gdańsk no, Gdańsk was a direct political and administrative subordinate of Poland for most of its history.

Gdansk
Altogether combining the number of years until 2010, the city was under rule of Poland for 706 years, under the rule of Teutonic Order for 158 years, 125 years as part of Prussia and later Germany, 29 years of its history are marked by the status of a free city, and 6 years under the occupation of Nazi Germany until it was given to Poland in 1945.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gda%C5%84sk

Wroclaw

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Piasts

you count those who could sign their name ?


really ? if people were like you they deserved it!

that's BS but i know you don't care.. PL was partitioned because of the szlachta.. they weakened poland to the point where the neighbors were able to waltz in and take our country.. otherwise we would have been on the map for 123 years.. putting szlachta on a pedestal is crazy.. grandpa never had much good to say about them and he definitely wasn't a freaking commie.. quite the opposite.

Yeah ? and grandpa knew all the best !

grandpa new better then all of you, that's for sure.

yeah ? my grand grand grandpa was an aristocrat himself, so you and your grandpa can shine his boots !

I-S ( that is the way to talk to simpletons who doesn't know their place )

Poland was partitioned because it was weakened by the ineffective rule of the saxon dynasties, you're still an uneducated moron who needs to shut up and learn his country history.


The neighbours never "waltzed" we fought a bitter war and only the betreyal of our king put an end to it, again you f*cking moron learn history before attempting to issue any sort of a opinion.

I think both of you are guilty of generalizing.
Not all of them were idiots, and not all of them were great patriots.
Chill already.

When was it created, historian? In 16, 17 or 18th century?
It was one more time that your szlachta showed its true colors:
Szlachticz # 1 "Ok, we will be raped by our own people by accepting that constitution or by armies from outside in 4 years".
Szlachticz # 2 "What is better for our fat lazy ars*es?"
Szlachticz # 3 "I think - our own people".
All together "Ok. Let's make a constitution of May 3rd in 1791"
Why was this conversation recorded only in 1791, not 1754 or 1675? Because their arrogant blind eyes realized their own ars*-saving solution too late. Anyhow, we have a true representative of szlachta in the 21st century:


I mean if you have people in our time limited to the point of oblivion, what was the situation in 18th century when szlachta couldn't take boots of their own feet. Szlachta was good for pancake dinners, not for leading a country or even worth to be part of a normal society. Basically, scum of the community with horses and coats of arms, which make someone very proud nowadays to the point of getting tattoo on a butt crack.

In a way, I understand you, Sokrates. Many need heroes to feel more important and worthy :)

The Elite in every country are nothing more than parasites. What Poland needs (and every country) is a large vibrant and robust Middle Class.

Agree 100%.

I guess polish schlachta is very welcome in Ukraine.

Eh, talk away,you don't even have a proper nation, and your country first appeared in 1991.
Cannot ignore it!
We will see what happens next to Ukraine - become part of the new Russian creation in one skin or the other.
You all wish to have something vaguely similar to our nobles, you even try to make Sobieski Ukrainian and picture cossacks in the likeness of szlachta. Pitiful ! Phew!

I doesn't matter what kind of szlachta, Polish or Ukrainian. They were worthless bastards, nothing else. Some childish pricks, like Sokrates and Ironside, which cannot tolerate an opinion from others, try to point construction sites or mention Ukrainian declaration of independance as if it even slighly pertains to the subject. Of course, I have no respect to szlachta as a parasitic layer of old times community and I won't put a tattoo on my ar*se to celebrate it. It has nothing to do with Poland, Polish people in general or those who took the boots out of lazy szlachta's feet.


:))) Who the hell is that? :) Some poet or painter, writer? If he wrote in Polish, I bet no one will ever claim his identity as non-Polish.

I think that Poland would benefit much more from improved roads, not from szlachta. lol

Polish aristos put themselves first, "their" peasants third and the country 17th.

Yes, I am discalculate - I used to work for PwC!

Ukraine should probably split in two. East Ukraine goes Russian while West Ukraine goes Polish. (don't forget, when a Pole and a Russian have a kid, out pops up a Ukrainian) ...

They created so many communist sympathisers by being so greedy and self-centred.

Poniatowski was even sh#gging the future Empress of Russia. This tells how diplomatically silly they could be.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_II_of_Prussia

"Frederick quickly began improving the infrastructure of West Prussia, reforming its administrative and legal code, and improving the school system. However, Frederick looked upon many of his new citizens with scorn.He had nothing but contempt for the szlachta, the numerous Polish nobility, and wrote that Poland had "the worst government in Europe with the exception of Turkey". He considered West Prussia as uncivilized as Colonial Canada and compared the Poles to the Iroquois."

eh? absolutely not! So many communist sympathisers were created by Soviet bayonets !


How come? It was rather advantageous !


he was military obsessed freak liar and cheat, who was falsifying money, whatever he said manes nothing - excuses excuses !


He was only saying that for propaganda reasons ....

No.

Rich families, that natural, and if they keep their money circulating in Poland, very good.

Magnates implies corrupt landlord class, who work against interest of Polish people of lesser means.

Not really.

The Magnates is a polish legacy, something that we should be proud of. But i guess people believe in the communist propaganda about the evul polish landlords and don't understand the importance of sucha families that could keep Polands prestige in the higher league.