manching23: See germans are good people , its native poles who robbed their own people. Germans just got a bad name.
i do not know who is better Germans or Russians ? Germans just shoot back and only and look for more breading room and killed millions of Poles and Russians just protected Polish people from evil Germans and kill millions of Poles, it is a puzzler it must be the evil Poles they were asking for it.
I think Bartoszewski is simply outlining a position where some Poles were beginning to lash out as a result of the atrocities they had previously suffered. Poles bark back strongly against perceived injustice and I dare say that some would have gone about their business brutally in that time. Poles are generally easy/oazy, floaty types but do wrong by them and the claws will out.
Its difficult to accept inconvenient truths isnt it? i.e. Polish colloboration with the Nazis,Jews helping Nazis to kill other Jews,Germans killing each other at the end of WWII,etc.Now you dont see yourselves ONLY as victims with the sense of purity that comes with it.
What convenient lies will you tell yourselves to help you deal with the truth?
You keep revisiting that place in your mind over and over again,trying to understand why it happened.The convenient terms "I was following orders" "it was kill or be killed" offer the fake closure that you so yearn for.There were MARTYRS,Polish, Ukrainian,Christian and Jew that chose death rather than aid,abet or participate in the killing of the innocent.
Hopefully,one day,I will be able to come to terms with the ghosts of the past.
The Eichmann case threw up all those issues for all to see. I don't believe many Poles would have readily participated in such killings either. However, fear makes you do sth funny things.
Unfortunately, Jan Gross' books have been causing considerable comment, both in as well as outside of Poland, most of it negative. Fact remains, many Poles DID collaborate, and DID participate in cooperating with the Germans to slaughter Jews, (both during the War aka Jedwabne, as well as after aka Kielce)!!
The Poles though, to their eternal credit, had NO quasi-puppet government, as did France, Czechoslovakia, Hungary or Norway.
Unfortunately general, untrue and sweeping statements like the one above do more to stir negative emotions than to educate people. However you are biased and such a poor and above all not factual narrative is to be expected from the likes of you.
As of course you haven't a shred of proof to support your last statement, why even bother to have made it? You merely succeed in embarrassing yourself and your trolling ways.
The burden of proof lies with you but we both know that you won't deliver. We had that conversation before, after which you disappeared for a certain period of time. Yet you always turn up as a bad penny.
The Nazis were required under the terms of the German-Soviet Boundary and Friendship Treaty of 28 September 1939 not to allow such a state to come into existence.
The Government of the German Reich and the Government of the U.S.S.R. consider it as exclusively their task, after the collapse of the former Polish state, to re-establish peace and order in these territories and to assure to the peoples living there a peaceful life in keeping with their national character. To this end, they have agreed upon the following:
ARTICLE I. The Government of the German Reich and the Government of the U.S.S.R. determine as the boundary of their respective national interests in the territory of the former Polish state the line marked on the attached map, which shall be described in more detail in a supplementary protocol. ... ARTICLE III. The necessary reorganization of public administration will be effected in the areas west of the line specified in article I by the Government of the German Reich, in the areas east of this line by the Government of the U.S.S.R.
I wonder why the USSR decided to re-establish Poland as a nominally independent country rather than taking it into the Soviet Union at the end of the war?
Probably because they made commitments at Yalta to there being an independent Poland and because Stalin correctly judged that there were, just as in any other country, enough selfish people in Poland to keep an undemocratic regime in power (with help from Russian and other forces) for decades; the same kind of people which Bartoszewski was talking about.
If Polish are so scary I wonder what Bartoszewski is still doing in Poland, maybe he should go to a "nice and friendly country" like Germany. I heard that even Jews were more afraid of other Jews attacking them in getthos (those Jews working for Hitler - they spoke Polish) than of Germans, whereas from Polish they could expect help, how suprised were the Jews when instead of big bad Polish monster they were welcomed to groceries and clothes, their surprise was due to the hatred towards Polish people that they sucked in through their mother's milk (their parents taought them to hate Polish just because they were not Jews).
Hatred cuts both ways, ktoś! Jews did't necessarily start out hating gentiles. Quite the contrary. But when the latter began by burning the Jews' houses aka The Lincolnshire Massacres in 13th century England, the Rindfleisch Massacre in Germany etc...., forbidding them from integration into daily life until they converted forcibly..., well, I suppose I would have turned anti-Christian myself.
It was not the Jews, after all, who instigated the ensuing hostilities, now, was it? Whereas the Christians didn't suddenly wake up one fine morning in May and decide they'd become anti-Semites, the Church stoked such ill will by prohibiting Jews from certain profession, i.e. from joining the guilds, then came the Inquisition. and so forth and so on.
So you see, it's not always so easy to point the finger of blame; there's plenty of mutual finger pointing to go around, my friend:-)
Hatred cuts both ways, ktoś! Jews did't necessarily start out hating gentiles. Quite the contrary. But when the latter began by burning the Jews' houses aka The Lincolnshire Massacres in 13th century England, the Rindfleisch Massacre in Germany etc...., forbidding them from integration into daily life until they converted forcibly..., well, I suppose I would have turned anti-Christian myself.
I think you need to search deeper than that and read Jewish holy books, you will see phrases full of denigration and scorn directed towards Gentiles. Why don't you mention why English did not like the Jews? One reason is business practices: Jews would sell at different (lower) price to a Jew and at higher price to a Gentile - just a little example, of many, many others.
Indeed, the blame is rarely one-sided. Let's not forget that the Jews regarded themselves as the divinely "chosen race". Goyim (everybody else) were not only rgearded as inferior and unclean but actually less than human. The Talmud teaches that God created Goyim to serve Jews. Interestingly, that sense of superiority has survived to some extent even amongst non-observant or atheist Jews. They too prefer to keep the company of and feel msot comfortable amongst other non-observant Jews.
Not that there's anything wrong with that but it may send out negative vibes to those looked down upon or regarded as inferior.
Well put, but try telling Jews that and they will label you an Anti-Semite he,he. Antisemitism seems to be the everoccuring argument of the Jews when they face loosing the discussion, interesting, I thought the superior people would be able to use more constructive argumentation instead of reaching out for the cheapest and lowest of methods - accusation! In other words bullying and blame placing, forcing out non-existent guilt, which conseauently weakens personal resolve and the other party (Jews) gains psychological advantage and hence wins argument.
But it has worked. That is part of their survival strategy. There's only 15 million of them but look how more influential they are than 2.5-3 times more numerous Spaniards or Ukrainians. Jews need anti-Semitism to survive.
The anti-Semitic card is the proverbial "kiss of death" to a politican, entertainer, entrepreneur or whoever. At times even someone hinting that Israel is maltreating Palestinians can get tarrerd with the anit-Semitic brush.
The reason why undoubtedly many Jewish merchants aka money-lenders etc. may have in fact overcharged usurously in certain cases, was thanks to the Church which expressly forbade them from entering "Christian" trades, thus forcing the Jews to do the thankless job of money lending, FORBIDDEN by Church teaching to gentiles!!
The arendarz or innkeeper in Polish villages more often than not was a Jew, and dispensing food and drink has always been a lucrative occupation. Not to mention countless Jews in crafts and trade in a country where most people eked out a subsistence as hard-scabble peasant farmers.
The bottom line is that many different factors have contributed to Jewry's affluence and influence. The lopsided nature of Polish society (85% peasantry 5% mainly in Jewish and German burghers and 10% gentry) in cneturies past have largely contribtued to Poland's lack of cultural influence and political clout. The partitions as well as Nazi and Soviet occupation further impoverished the nation. A pruncated Poland has been fully free for a mere 45 of the past 350 years!
