Hitler held a far more radical vision of how the Jews exploited and tried to make everyone be like them. He also felt that they disrespected purely white races and he couldn't accept that. His views were shared by some Poles but his actions, as we know, were OTT and his problem-solving skills were in need of some work.
I guess that Poles understand what the SS and Wehrmacht were trying to do but were confused as to why many Poles were targetted for harsh treatment.
Nomad, you are off on a rant again. I asked you what that had to do with the topic. Britain is known to be a selfish country and objective Brits would accept that. However, what has that got to do with the thread?
Nomad, you are off on a rant again. I asked you what that had to do with the topic. Britain is known to be a selfish country and objective Brits would accept that. However, what has that got to do with the thread?
You need to follow my dialog with Ksysia. She mentioned hatred was due to Soviets. Why didnt you ask then why she mentioned Soviets ? and I mentioned Britain's involvement taking her to WWI and now, asking why I mentioning Britain? You need to read my posts..
I'm fully aware what the Soviets did, nomad. What did Britain have to do with the Silesian question, for example? What did Britain have to do with Poland having Jews and Himmler's SS Einzatgrupen going there? Your posts answer nothing in this regard.
Well, what Nomaderol probably means is the century-old strategy of GB to not let one possible rival from the continent become to big and make alliances accordingly...just remember WWI which spawned a Hitler which spawned WWII.
After all GB declared only war on Germany as it invaded Poland, not Russia too...Russia wasn't seen so much as a rival to GB's interests on the continent as Germany was.
Again, that goes back to British selfishness and we all know how Hitler built himself up but that still doesn't explain the hatred between Poles and Germans.
Hitler Jews and Genocide on Youtube should help him out. I'm watching it now.
Hehehe, it's very basic and is more for secondary school students. Still, it's educational nonetheless and keeps it factual. Better than some exaggerated account by a biased author.
Didn't you get it yet? Ok, here.. Since late 19th century, the main target of industrialized countries has been 'oil.' WWII was partially about the oil. But, WWI was mainly about the oil. Where was the oil? In Ottoman lands (today Arab lands.) Why Germans built railway through Turkey to Baghdat pre-WWI? For oil. Why Britain supported Arabs against Ottomans? For oil. Why Britain also promised Jews during this period pre-WWI about future Israel? For oil. (so that to control Arabs and Jews were popular scientists intellectuals in Europe as well.)
So, Germans and Britain were racing for the oil. Two main competitors. Of course, Germans will play their games (sided Ottoman palace, bad choice) and Britain did other things I mentioned above. And, one of them was to stir Germany (Silesia) Jews as these folks were soft part of Germany then and such an action would gain support also from churches. So, Jews in Germany had became problem, it was due to Britain's pre-WWI policy. For what? Oil.
Britain's pursuit of oil has very little to do with what the SS did in Poland, nomad. It was a question of ideology, first and foremost. The Nazi machine were hellbent on destroying Jews and Britain's oil dealings really come nowhere near being as relevant as the anger that Poles felt when the Germans rounded them up and lowered their status in their own country.
Drafting Britain into the equation is an in vain attempt to deflect the focus away from the Nazis presence on the streets of Poland, beating up Poles and forcing them to work under their conditions. You don't think the razing of Warsaw to the ground aroused fury amongst Poles? You have a shady understanding of the background of the world wars.
Drafting Britain into the equation is an in vain attempt to deflect the focus away
No, Britain had done that. Made Germany busy with Jews by stirring soft part of Germany (Silesia, where big population of Jews were living.) Britain did similar things in Ottoman lands (by promising Krykik, Mousul, etc to Kurds also, but, they didnt keep their promise till this Iraq war.) There had been anti-Jew in Europe (Spain deportation in 16th c, later deportation, etc) before, but, Jews were like Gypsies of Europe, there were no mass killings before. Starting with the oil games, Britain played with the Jews of Europe (located in Germany poland mostly) as Germany was Britain's competitior for the oil. Root of mass killings of Jews and deportation from Poland during WWII goes back to late 19th c, pre-WWI games for oil. Germany (and Poland as well) falled down in the games of Britain again during WWII just like it happened before and during WWI. Nobody is saying Germany did nothing to Jews then, but, not mentioning Britain's fingers (collobrated with Europe as well) since late 19th c is to try to hide the truth. Well hided. But, now, with Iraq war, things hidden for a century are very clear. Jews were played by Britain and put in front of Christian radical Europeans of the day.
They didn't make Germany busy with the Jews at all. Hitler's motives were not connected with oil either. He saw the Jews as corrupt and manipulative, trying to subjugate people and refusing to integrate properly. Sorry but I just don't buy into your rants.
Certain phenomena exist in parallel and your correlations are tenuous at best. Hatred comes from losing families, forcing oppressive conditions on people and denying dignity and liberty to people in their own land. Brutality too plays its part.
To those furious people, oil was NOT at the forefront of their minds. No offence but you know next to nothing about Silesia. Write more and you'll just prove it to me even more.
Jews hatred in Germany suddenly started during Hitler era during WWII? Illogical. Its root goes back to WWI and pre-WWI. States in the history, especially a state like Britain are pragmatics. If a community (Jews, Kurds, etc) have been used, stirred and killed by many, it is not only about nation or religion for the states. States dont do such things without any real profit. Profit of game has been oil since late 19th c. Britain have wanted oils much. Now, they are in oil wells..
Look, I'm not denying that profiteering from oil was a major part of Britain's approach. It has been for a very long time and is to this day. Do you really think, in your wildest imagination, that Poles that exacted revenge killings after the war and applauded Dresden were thinking about oil? I've already outlined the reasons for hatred and you are still gibbering on about a minor issue that barely even figured in Hitler's mind.
Go and read Mein Kampf and listen to some accounts of survivors of the war. Then tell me it's about oil, LOL.
Ordinary folks don't see the pictures well. They are usually prisoners of their nationalist feelings, religious feelings, etc. These feelings are used by the major players. Major players (deep states) pragmatically think about the wealth gain mostly and the wealth criteria since 19th c has been oil. States sometimes even form a religious sect (eg, a famous islamic sect, name it a big group, in Turkey formed by Britain during pre-WWI, but, ordinary folks dont know this truth at all.. Now, the leader of this sect lives in USA and I see his conferences in Britain. Notice. This sect leader escaped from secular Turkey several years ago as he was about to be put into the jail, when?, pre-iraq war.) Britain also supported Kurdish movements against Saddam and Turkey, but, an ordinary Kurd doesnt know this. If Barzani wasnt given some oil wells in Iraq, imagine... Millions of people have been killed for the oil. Denying that? (just look at iraq.) So, using Jews and radical Christians are not a big thing for the states. Ottomans did, Roman empire did, now, Britain did and doing.
Nomad, you are away with the fairies. I'm not denying any of the allegations against successive British governments. You are missing the whole point of the central reasons for hatred. I've outlined them above and I'm not going to do so ad nauseam.
There was hatred and for very good reasons. NOT connected with oil and that's the end of story!!
Jews havent been liked in Europe for centuries. It is normal, strangers arent liked much. But, there had been no mass killings before. If Jews hadnt gathered in German lands (Poland then) and spreaded to Europe, there wouldnt be mass killings. Those Jews would be considered like gypsies who arent liked much either. Kurds too had never been problem before. Jews were in Germany, main oil competitior. Millions killed. For oil.. Kurds were in Iraq (Ottoman land of then and Saddam's Iraq later.) Millions killed. For oil.. King naked. (or should i have said, queen:!)
Nomad, I think you are trying to convince yourself. Good luck with that :)
Report back to me when those survivors fill you in with their experiences. I'll even buy you a barrel of oil as a Brit if they confirm your conclusions.
I'm from the oil capital of Europe and have worked in the oil&gas industry. We know a thing or two about motives in different spheres.
a theft is successful till he is caught under spot lights. Britain is under spot lights now. in oil heaven. Was it really worth to do everythings just for simple oil. Ok, you got the oil. But, for what? To make serum hoses or to consume it as CO2 and CO gases. We ordinary folks including ordinary Brits may need tons of serum hoses soon if economy crisis goes like that.
Ok, returning to topic. States dont care the past. They can come together easily. Ordinary folks wont do fool things anymore for nationalist feelings, for religious feelings, etc. Economy crisis reminds all, from ordinary folks, to mosques, to churches, etc.. there is only and only one god, money!
So, Germans and Britain were racing for the oil. Two main competitors.
I second that. The colonies were the bounty as well. That's why there was Afrika Korps, that's why the war extended to the Pacific. We can concentrate on Jews in Poland all we want, but forgetting that in the first years of the war German, American and French armies already fought over Africa is losing the big picture. This was the World War, not Polish war.
The US has benefited the most of the territorial gains. It's also painted as a good guy, but let's not forget their dirty undies - they camped in Berlin, check point Charlie, and no further. There wasn't much Jew saving, but there was millions of German POWs starved to death. And there was poor Poland, happily stuffed in the bag with the East. Maybe they Americans though all Slavs are the same, but since there are 3 strongly differing groups, Western Catholic/Protestant, Eastern orthodox, and Southern Orthodox/Catholic, there were problems. And we didn't want Communism.
And 20 years after the cold war, Poland is under such direct influence from the Yanks that we can't even build good trade relationship with bad Germans and uncool Ukrainians. Poland can't even buy oil from Iran and build a mega airport in Warsaw.
There is an article in Polityka about mixed blood children in Poland. This leftist paper of course concentrates on hardships and racisms, but they slipped a word of truth. 'due to the political atmosphere, the Persian guy with a British passport cannot be persecuted for choking his wife in a fight. If she married an Ukrainian, he could be persecuted, because the political climate is not to touch Westerners'
This kind of explains why China has punished the Arab cabdriver, right? They want to keep it straight there, not racist like in Poland. Brits don't get persecuted - that's ******* contemporary colony.
You don't understand big power play.Russians have an understanding.UK is in the business in the last 1000 years they know sth better.Germans tried and failed and now get some of their old ambitions through the EU.Would Bismarck want the EU?
Emotional rants and raves with little relevance. Please try and stay on topic. Nomad, you even ranted about oil above and then said 'ok, returning to (the) topic'.
Your sidetracking is offensive to those that suffered major losses in the war. Many still hold to the fact that Germans voted Hitler in and are thus responsible for all his evil deeds. I don't think that way but some Poles are still furious.
Ksysia, what are you trying to prove with such a thread title? I've heard the hatred with my own ears and it exists. Many Poles don't forgive and forget that quickly.
There is still hatred.I have noticed tension in the air when Poles and Germans meet in touristic places.Usually they avoid each other.Poles go on vaccations to same places with Czechs,Serbs,Slovaks,Hungarians and Russians as far as Greece is concerned.
I don't think that's the best example as Germans tend to avoid one another too when on vacation. Again, the world wars is where the proof is to be found.
I was told that in bars and clubs they avoid mixing Germans with English they have some clubs exclusively for English and some for English- Scandinavians.
But Slavs tend indeed to vaccate together I attribute this to common habits(for example youth vaccates with families in same places while western European youth usually vaccates without any parents,children etc or they go to separate places.But where there are Slavs there are always children,some older people etc they don't tend to this western youth separation).
I was told that in bars and clubs they avoid mixing Germans with English
Only in places like Mallorca where there might be the chance of a nice little bar fight between the Brits and Germans. I've never seen a separation elsewhere in Europe. Actually, it's quite the opposite in my experience: Germans and Brits get along quite well and enjoy getting pissed together.
Poles and Germans meet in touristic places.Usually they avoid each other
I don't believe that it is the Germans who avoid the Poles.
Seanus, thanks, you are kind to be so compassionate about the dead. I apprieciate it.
But I also see only one argument in this thread agains my point - that there was a war.
Yes, there was a terrible war and we have had huge losses. I am saying 'we', but I was not alive at the time. No chance of guessing how I would do in combat.
But it's been two generations ago. The history is distorted, my generation is taught bollocks about what happened. Bleaching the US and UK is just dumb. They have their things to answer for. And they try to put the blame of killing European Jewish Diaspora on Poles. Fraking chancers.
But anyway. Grieving has not been done properly, because the war for us was much longer, largely due to the Communism inflicted by our Slavonic brethren. So we still have strong feelings about the venerable deceased. Kaczynski is doing the good thing to hold all those sad celebrations. It was done long ago in other countries.
About the Germans: we are Poles and we do not use the group responsibility in our culture. We believe that sons are not guilty of what fathers had done. So aren't the grandsons. Also, about what happened before this war. Germans were good citizens, good neighbours, good employees and business partners. I hope that they will be all those things again.
I also want to remind that the Germans who chose the Republic rather than Imperial dreams of mr. H had been fighting on Polish side, like my half-Polish Grandmother Sprinz, or at least sat it out in an oflag, like her Father, German immigrant to Poland (well.... Lida)
So I have absolutely nothing against being friends with Germans again. I would be cautious about the politics, naturally, but not as much as the US/UK tandem. I would be cautious because even though normal people are good neighbours, politicians are not.
That's what it's all about, Ksysia. Also, good Christians find it hard to fully accept 'forgiveness is divine' when their families have been wiped out.
Ksysia, is it possible to address the inbetween time? I hear far too much of now and then without the efforts made in the middle. What do you make of the European Coal and Steel Community, then the EEC, then the EC and then EU? I feel it necessary to address this as why harp over 70 years back to the start of WWII? Much repair work lay between.
You believe that sons are not guilty of what their fathers did? I don't pick up on that with discussions with people here on this point.
Also, are you any part German? This would lead to some natural bias.
The repair work was done west of the Iron Curtain, but not in the east for obvious reasons. You just have to hang out on PF for a while to notice the differences between postings of folks from the west and east.
