Slavs are descendants of Sarmatians?

So why post links to trash like that?

More important to look at 'Sarmatians' and other groups in terms of their cultural heritage rather than DNA which doesn't determine how people behave or what they achieve.

If you're strongly of that opinion thus you shouldn't type to thread: "Slavs are descendants of Sarmatians?", maybe make a new thread about link between cultures of Slavs and Sarmatians. I can give you a small inspiration: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture

Yamna culture gave to born both: Slavs and Scythians.

What makes you think that being a descendent is only about DNA. By the time of the Sarmatian Movement, any biological link was too far back to be relevant to anything. The Polish population, by the way, are much more diverse, with heritage from many more sources.

It is often claimed Scythians and Sarmatians spoke ''Iranian" languages. So, Slavic people would have be a result of a profound transformation if they are their descendants...

maybe Scythians were iranians,but were absorbed by slavs,who they conquered..i remember i read some story about scythian royal warrior extracted in russia.they checked his dna,and it appear ,he was slavic.

also..they are hypotesis,that slavs themselves are of iranian descend,..migrated north from persia and mixed with balts ect.darius called slavic land "little persia"

slavic early history is very unknown..very little written records

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages


Even if it have happened it happened more then 4 thousands of years ago. Maybe 7 thousands. Obviously that early Slavs were Nordic mostly. Blond and blue-eyed. Here is a map that shows Indo-European migrations in the last 4.5 thousands of years. If to believe in this hypothesis Southern Russia and Eastern Ukraine have been homeland for almost all modern Europeans. (With exception of Finns and Hungarians).



Scheme of Indo-European migrations from c. 4000 to 1000 BCE according to the Kurgan hypothesis.
* The magenta area corresponds to the assumed Urheimat (Samara culture, Sredny Stog culture) and the subsequent Yamna culture.
* The red area corresponds to the area which may have been settled by Indo-European-speaking peoples up to c. 2500 BCE.
* The orange area to 1000 BCE.
thescienceforum.com/anthropology-archaeology-palaeontology/28249-english-russian-language-similarities.html

Almost perfect, merely that the map doesn't describe a movement of all of proto indo-european speakers, so R1b (Kelts) is there missed. It's only a half of the puzzles, that's just about R1a. Old Kelts spoke in similar language, however west-european population have got more from R1b language.

I'd say that Slavs (German: Slawen) and Wends (German: Wenden/Winden) are mostly descendants of ancient Suevi and Venedi. Written sources and recent genetic studies (ancient DNA continuity) suggest so.


Tacitus (98 AD)

Peutinger Map (4th century AD)
images69.fotosik.pl/843/1706eddc24266dbc.jpg



Procopius (540s AD - 551 AD)


Isidore of Seville (615 - 630s)
images70.fotosik.pl/903/83c5c99eb4cd03fc.png


Jonas Bobiensis (639 - 643)


Fredegar (640s)

In the early 800s the Limes Saxoniae have been established.

Prussian (probably 36-38) and Slavic (1-35; 39-55) tribes according to Bavarian Geographer (ca.844)
images67.fotosik.pl/901/bd37673fd85e9618.png
images70.fotosik.pl/900/87712e445ef35457.png


Adam of Bremen (1073 - 1076)


Wulfstan's voyage (ca.880)
images70.fotosik.pl/604/53723239fef9be5b.jpg

The problem with Suevi is that West Slavic countries consist of more R1a variations and eg Russian even more. Your theory can be right, but merely from a part.

I think that you are right, because R1a had invaded Germany and Skandinavia cca 5000 years ago and it was very simple for R1a as well as later for R1b (Kelts), because they'd horses as first (nobody else in Europe saw it before, they didn't know how to fight with riders). But... this dna is matched only in west Slavic, Baltic and Germanic countries. It's not all of R1a dna between Slavs.

Strabo

So-called West Slavic marker (R1a-M458)
cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png

All clades of R1a (note that European clades of R1a, i.e. Z280 and M458 are not ancestral to Asian clades and vice versa)

cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif

yfull.com/tree/R1a/

In the early Middle Ages R1a-M458 people very likely inhabited much larger area, check genetic studies on Sorbs (genetically very similar to Poles, high % of M458, especially L260).

Can you give a brief summary of genetic studies on Sorbs bearing in mind that there are two groups of them: one of Niederlausitz (Brandenburg) and one of Oberlausitz (Saxony)?

Abstract (Genetic variation in the Sorbs of eastern Germany in the context of broader European genetic diversity, 2011)


Since then, subclades M458 and Z280 were analysed by Underhill, Sorbs have 65% of R1a (M458 - 57%, other subclades - 43%). These results show considerable similarity to Polish DNA.

Abraham ben Jacob (ca.965)


Edit.....100 words or less

With every year, we have more and more documents properly translated into English. Also, in the last years genetic research was significantly improved (subclades analysis), this should help us with better understanding of human migration. Results from ongoing projects, such as "Dynastia i społeczeństwo państwa Piastów w świetle zintegrowanych badań historycznych, antropologicznych i genomicznych" (Marek Figlerowicz) or Iron Age/Middle Ages Y-DNA comparison by Janusz Piontek will shed some light on the history of the Slavs.

However, I cannot find the English translation of the text of Abraham ben Jacob. Could you provide the link?

I do not understand what is the reason to establish links beween Slavs and Sarmatians. Sarmatians disappeared thousands of years ago...
What difference does it make?

Mieszko was also mentioned in Miracula Sancti Oudalrici (ca.983-993) as "dux Wandalorum, Misico nomine" and in the annals of German Church (992) as "obiit Misica dex Vandalorum", while Widukind of Corvey wrote "Misca (or Missacam) regem, cuius potestatis erant Sclaui, qui ******** Licicaviki [name derived probably from duke Lestek, Mieszko's grandfather], duabus vicibus superavit, fratremque ipsius interfecit, predam magnam ab eo extorsi".

Sarmatian name was universal name of all Slavs back in past, before name of Slavjani spread. In fact, name of Sarmats is still alive ethnic name as linguistic science confirms. It lives in the name of Serbians and Sorbs. Those are noting but local forms of Sarmatian name.

What is also interesting is that old scholars spoke of Sarmatian-Thrachian connection, as it is one and same people. So, there are historical data of Eastern Roman scholar Duca who spoke of Serbians as of Thracians. When wrote about Serbs he used name of Tribali to designate them and spoke of Serbians as of greatest Thracian tribe.

Not to say that medieval Serbian state had in use two parallel names- Serbia and Rascia (Rashka). See, word Thracia is foreign form of native Rascia/Rashka (Th-racia). It is also confirmed by linguistic science and goes hand in hand with historical reality on terrain. Mediaval Hungarians used to call Serbians, Raci. For Poles Serbs were Racowie. So, ethnic names (in Serb.) Srbi and Rasani (Serbians/Sarmatains and Rashani/Racowie/Thracians) always went together.

Slavs are Sarmatians. No dilemma, Slavs are Thracians, too. We here speak of one and same people. Just, names of Sarmatians and Thracians used scholars to designate Slavs of antiquity. Since early middle age its name of Slavjani.

If believe to this map, Sarmatians lived side to side with Balto-Slavs. Later they had been displaced be Germanic Goths tribes.



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

Excerpts from "The Primary Chronicle" (ca.850-1110):


As we can see below some of the West Slavic/Venethi tribes migrated eastward:


According to Wikipedia:

Oh, I see that article about Early Slavs (Wikipedia) was updated:


Please see here: /wiki/Early_Slavs#Historiography

The location of Lechitic Radimichs and Vyatichs, who migrated from Central Europe to Ukraine and Russia before the year 885:
images70.fotosik.pl/944/214aa04baa34276d.png

R1a-M458 (so-called West Slavic marker) distribution map:
images67.fotosik.pl/945/d0edfe7f312730f2.png

It seems that Lechitic/Venethi Radimichs and Vyatichs preserved the rituals of the Iron Age ancestors (see Pomeranian, House Urns, Przeworsk, Oksywie and other cultures where use of burial urns was so popular):


Not only Radimichs and Vyatichs migrated from territories of Poland/East Germany...

Craniometric Relationships among Medieval Central European Populations: Implications for Croat Migration and Expansion, 2004


ariets.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/15311416.pdf

The positions of the analyzed Croatian sites in relation to the observed clusters were as follows. Sites from the east Adriatic coast: Nin, Bribir, Mravinci, and Danilo were located in the lower right part of the plot in the cluster of Polish sites. Nin, the most important early medieval Croatian site, occupied almost the same position as Cedynia, an early medieval site from northern Poland.

images69.fotosik.pl/997/d2da52a594a190e1.jpg

About arrival of Croats to Dalmatia during the reign of Heraclius (610-641):


homepage.univie.ac.at/ilja.steffelbauer/DAI.pdf

And, of course, "Fancia" means here the kingdom of Franks and not France

The white Croats as well as the white Sorbs lived on what was the territory of the former DDR (today these are the lands of Brandenburg, Saxony and Thuringen. Some of them dwell there still as a tiny minority among their neighbourghs the Germans who were also Sorbs not sovery long time ago (even under Hitler there were more of Sorben people than at present).

Obviously it's a little more complicated than that, however the Sorbs are closely genetically related to both Polish natives and Croatians. There's also a hypothesis linking Sorbs and Ashkenazim.

Incidentally, Ignacy Krasicki helped the Sorbs establish education in their own language. Many have since emigrated to Australia and become Australians.

^ That's correct.

Based on anthropological research and genetic studies we can assume that Croats were either heavily mixed with West Slavs or were in fact one of the West Slavic tribe prior to the 7th century AD.

Oh, I meant to say "That's correct, Ziemowit".

But if Croats were already Slavic upon their arrival to Dalmatia, then it means that Slavs lived in East Germany long before the reign of Heraclius (610-641). The question that arises now is when exactly did the West Slavic tribes appear in East Germany?

The Slavic identity emerged later.

Remember, the Population of Europe was tiny compared to today.

Who knows when the Slavic identity emerged...Definitely, it was strong during the early 500s.

Procopius about migration of Heruli in 509-512:


gutenberg.org/files/20298/20298-h/20298-h.htm

And prior to that we have Suevi/Suavi and Venedi inhabiting Central Europe, exactly in the same places were the "early" Slavs known as Sclavi, Sclaveni, Veneti, Venethi, etc. are "found" during the early 500s.

The question is more about whether there was the slightest connection or continuity, and was it accretional or reductive.


Now they were an interesting tribe.

"The question is more about whether there was the slightest connection or continuity, and was it accretional or reductive."

Well, definitely here archaeogenetics could help. For example: journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0110839

"Veneti"

Do you you mean Veneti, therefore Slavs from the 500s-600s (according to Jordanes, Jonas Bobiensis, Fredegar, etc.) or for example Venedi from the Peutinger Map (4th century AD) of "unknown origin"?

Very much so, though that's only a small part of the story.


Indeed, however calling them by a term currently in use, Slavs, assumes too much.