Croats have some pretty strong links to Sarmatians. It's possible that Sarmatians referred to themselves as "Harvati". I'm going to attach an article here which talks about the King Arthur legend. The author lists the "Sauromatae" as one of the most important Sarmatian tribes, (pg 8). If this is the case, it would explain why Red and White (or Great) Croatia existed - it was just the name of the Sauromatae tribe.
The article also says "modern ethnologists and linguists consider very probable that the Serbs/Sorbs and the Chrovates (Croats) were originally Sarmatian tribes which became the ruling nobility of many hitherto unorganized Slavs" (pg 17). It's more likely that the Croats were the ruling class rather than the Serbs because White and Red Croatia was far larger and is mentioned far more often than White Serbia.
I don't know how reliable this source is, but the author doesn't have a Serbo-Croatian name, so I'm going to assume he's being objective.
But in addition to this, Croats have some pretty strong artistic ties to ancient Iran. Our red and white checkerboard is thought to be brought over from Iran because it's been found on several pieces of ancient Persian art. Also, something called the "Croatian interlace" or "Croatian pleter" has been found on a lot of items of ancient art, including Scythian. Here is a video which explains the checkerboard and interlace a bit.
youtube.com/watch?v=nQA00Zn_XC0
So jon357, Sarmatian culture is not dead! It's alive and kicking in Croatia (Sarmatia)!
Refreshing idea for one who is Hrvat. Good. Still for majority of convinced Croats their origin isn`t connected to Slavs but to Goths and then for Germanics. Sure, its another delusion because Goths were not ancestors of Germanics but its not the topic now.
As for your ideas, you are wrong. If you are right, there would be Lusatian Croats or Lusatian Hrvati. But no, they are Serbs. Not to speak of all other names of places and rivers all around Europe that are connected directly to name of Serbs, in ancient records. As for name of Croat or Hrvat, I could give quite good conclusion but topic is heavily involved with politics and I won`t.
Hrvat may have originally come from Haravaitish tribe who lived Zranka/Drangiana in what's now present day east Iran. They may have been an east Alanic people who lived in central Asia for a long time and then moved into Europe with other fugitive Alans, escaping Huns.
Anyway, another important point. Sarmatian history needs discussion and clarification because writers of Eastern European Slavic history generally begin at around 800 or 900 AD with their histories.
They miss that important link between the Sarmatae & Venedi of the classical period and the medieval Slavic kingdoms. The events during the Chernyakov era are very significant and discernible Slavonian history begins there around 200AD.
Also, the GERMAN historians of the late 19th century and early 20th, greatly and deliberately obscured the picture of eastern European history of ancient times. They IGNORED the proximity of Slavic languages and Indo-Iranian. They made up the theory of `Indo Germanic' and tried to persuade the world how close German was to Aryan languages.
It reflected their attitude very well back then, as they had under their control most Slavic nationalities.
I also found that 19th century writers from England and France were surprisingly very accurate about the Slavs and the ancient Sarmatae and Venedi. Very detailed and inquisitive
No, Crow, I'm not wrong. The last name "Horvat" or variations of it are found from South Poland all the way down to Croatia. It's the most common last name in Slovakia and Croatia, the second in Slovenia and Hungary, and is found in Czech Republic and South Poland as Charwat (I think). The fact that it's so common probably means that the Sarmatians who lived there called themselves "Horvati" or "Harvati".
The artistic links of Croats to Sarmatians and Scythians are actually quite strong. Many art historians have verified the links. So we have maintained some aspects of Sarmatian culture, which in my opinion, gives us a right to say we are still Sarmatian.
I found this link. It shows some Sarmatian armour in a museum in Kiev. Looks pretty familiar doesn't it? Just further evidence that we have cultural ties to the Sarmatians.
scoopnest.com/s/The%20Scythians/science/
Also, two of the most common Croatian last names (Babic and Maric, 3th and 4th most common) are matronymic, which means women are important in our society, just like in early Sarmatian society. The early Sarmatians were matronymic, according to this page on encyclopedia Britannica, but eventually became patriarchal due to the rise of "calvary corps". Also, the legend of 5 brothers and 2 sisters who led the early Croatian tribes is further evidence of matriarchy in Croatian society.
SRBIN > Greek/Roman transcription > SARMATIAN > solely Roman version > CHARMATIAN > CARMATIAN > CROATIAN > soften native version of foreign form > HRVAT
Turkish version, as they called Serbs during occupation > CAURI
But to be clear, in ancient times there were Serbs Serbs and Serbs in general. See, that what is now HRVAT is from Serbs Serbs. Linguistic, genetics, known history and sanity proves that.
Also
If softened by people under foreign linguistic influence, where `S` is Romanized into `C` and where `B` regularly transit into `V` > SRBIN > HRBIN > HRVIN > HRVAT; These are linguistic rules. Google that.
Can you send a link that exactly states that? According to Oleg Trubachyov, it's the opposite, the H in Iranian became the "S" in Greek and Roman. Or maybe I misunderstood what I read. Doesn't the word Serb come from "Sarban", the namesake of the Pashtun (also Iranian) Sarbani tribe?
In any case, it's people who today identify as Croats, not Serbs, that have closer links to Sarmatians.
Hello Classic34, can you shed some light on this issue? Where does it say that Sarmatian started as Serb? It makes no sense to me. Why would the Romans and Greeks add the "atae" at the end? Wouldn't they just be called "Sarbae" or "Sarbanae"? To be honest though, I'm not sure if Trubachyov's interpretation makes sense either because of what you said about the Haravaiti tribe coming over with the Alans.
Also, am I exaggerating when I say we have strong artistic links? I've read that there are links and that art historians have confirmed it, but is this something that exists among all Slavic peoples?
Why would the Romans and Greeks add the "atae" at the end? Wouldn't they just be called "Sarbae" or "Sarbanae"?
You must understand basic linguistic. Google that.
native SRBI or SRBIJANCI >>>> Greeks and Romans were absolutely unable to pronounce SRB. Only in Serbian, from all Slavic and European languages `r` stays as vowel.... so Greeks/Romans/strangers needed AU (or A or E or O or U...) between S-R... >>>> SaR >>>> Then RB (exist in Serbian as word)... I listened linguistic comments on this... word was form in such a deep past that was associated with sound that is heard when man cut meat ... also word PRT (a bunch of snow)... world old behind archaic and also was formed after people heard sound produced when man walks on snow.... >>>>>> so strangers of newer languages often totally dismissed RB or kept only R adding some vowel after it or mutated B into V...... in this case >>>>>> SauRi and SauRomatae. That `matae` is no doubt obvious Greek/Roman attempt to translate SRBIJANCI, the longer version of native SRBI. There, they heard N but were unable to get it properly and confused N/M and actually didn`t care. Native SRBIjanci means `from Serbia` and so also SAUROmatae (from Serbia/land of Serbs).
I will remind that medieval Turks used to use name CAURI for Serbs during occupation. So, Turkish version of the word SRBI and Greek/Roman deformed version of SAURI/SAUROMATAE, undoubtedly, beside many other linguistic and other proofs (names of places, rivers), proving, as stated by linguistic science that behind name of Sarmatians stay name of Serbians.
See no wonder that some strangers were labeled as NEMCI (Eng. MUTE).
I don't want to support too much on `Sarbans' or whatever because these are just theories.
To Procopius, Spori were forefathers of the Antae and Slavi
But Serboi did exist in that period and location in Sarmatia and it sounds a lot like Sporoi, Spori, Speri etc. Dvornik, Safarik, Niederle and others thought it `a generic former name for all Slavs.' Connection with Spali less certain.
Chernyakov complex is difficult to assign ethnicities from one another, as ethnicities seem to be less distinguishable in that tumultuous period.
At what time period is this? And where was this? I'm not well informed to be honest. I only recently learned of this Croatian/Sarmatian link.
Also, can you tell me more about White Croats and their role in forming the early Slavic states? I read somewhere on this forum that they formed Moravia, Bohemia, etc. What are the theories on them? And are they believed to be the Haravaiti that arrived with the Alans or are they believed to be someone else? I also read somewhere that some people believe "hrwt" was a title rather than an ethnonym, but it became an ethnonym over time. What are the theories on that?
@Crow
Can you **** off you *******? You're the lazy one. I provided links to anything I talked about. Nobody's ******* talking to you.
Ok, so I read Procopious was alive from 500 - 554 AD. This is long after the Tanais tablets were found which contain "Horovathos" and the 2 other similar names. So people who called themselves "Horvati" existed long before Procopious.
You sounded well informed. I don't have time to read through that many articles and things. I was just hoping someone would give me a quick recap of the theory on them. I have read some things, but they might be biased or inaccurate.
Never said that no Roman ever set a foot in current day Poland... but the amber trade was done mostly via middlemen and the road actually led through western Poland. The Roman historians and leadership might be occasionally getting some 2nd hand accounts but it was like "so we were marching for two weeks, then we reached territory populated by tall people, their language and behavior were very barbarian". There's nothing indicating that Romans knew much what was going on along the Oder, let alone Vistula. They knew well what was going on within like 200 km away from their borders and that's it. Just compare different Roman sources. They confuse the tribes, put them in wrong places etc.
Anyway, leaving all of that aside, the Sarmatians from your map aren't Slavs. They are Iranian nomads living on the stepp.
There's nothing indicating that Romans knew much what was going on along the Oder, let alone Vistula.
There is. You actually haven't read all posts in this thread (see post #383).
An archeological discovery of 2017/2018 in Poland has revealed that Roman soldiers were staying in the area of Kujawy up to 2 thousand years ago. - "This is evidenced by the uncovered fragments of equestrian gear and legionnaire outfit. Many of them were discovered for the first time outside the borders of the Roman Empire" - told the Polish press agency PAP dr Bartosz Kontny of the University of Warsaw Institute of Archeology. As a unique thing among the analyzed artefacts, the archaeologist indicates a gilded copper application of the hip belt. It depicts the spear of the beneficiary, or a high-ranking officer of the Roman army. "It was an attribute of his power," says the archaeologist.
The region of Kujawy (Cuiavia) borders the Vistula river directly. In fact, that discovery is one of major significance as to the presence of the Roman army on the now Polish soil. Anyway, It is the first of such kind in Poland. A unit of the Roman must have stationed in Cuiavia for some longer time as the acumulation of Roman military artefacts on this spot is amazingly large.
I have found links between the Veneti and "Horvati".
The term Wends/Veneti seems to have been applied to areas where the name Horvath is the most common:
- the Slovenians were called Wends until the mid 19th century by Germans - Horvat second most common last name in Slovenia - the Slovakians were called Wends in German language texts before 1400 - Horvath most common last name in Slovakia - sometimes it was used for the region Slavonia in Croatia - last name Horvat most common - today Wends are also called Sorbs - obvious link there
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wends
The word Wends/Venedi originates from the Vistula Veneti, who were described as Sarmatian Veneti. The Vistula river is in Poland, known to be where the White Croats lived.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
All of this only makes sense if Sarmat = Harvat.
Tacitus was not very fond of the Veneti, calling them squalid and saying they were ugly because of the mixture with Sarmatians.
So if Wend is a historic name for Slavs, then Sarmatians have a clear link to early Slavs.
There' been loads of Roman coins and weapons found in Poland. These items were just traded so it's not surprising. Those mentioned findings are unusual indeed. But still it's not even a proof that the Romans really were there. Those items might have been brought there by people, who took part in some battle close to the Roman border and just took them of the dead Roman soldiers. Or some locals might be serving in the Roman army (many "barbarians" did) and they just came back home with it after many years. Anyway, I'm not saying Romans had never been in Kujawy. Obviously, occasionally they must have been sending some expeditions there. Definitely there were some contacts, both ways.
But... how it all started ? BButt showed a Roman map, which was going to prove... something, and I told him to be careful with it as Romans didn't pay much attention to that area (especially eastern part) and surely weren't really collecting any detailed info, weren't analyzing differences between tribes etc. - there's nothing indicating that they did it. Sending 50 soldiers to protect serval merchants going there to purchase unusually large amount of amber is not like opening an embassy really. So the map was just an interpretation of a guy, who tried to put it together out of many 2nd/3rd hand accounts. You can google up Roman maps from those times and compare them, they often show different things...
