You are talking a lot just to say nothing at all. OK, I'm all bad and you're all good. I'm not right and you're always right. You don't need arguments or facts, you just know that all in your guts. I can live with that Lzyko.
Let's hear them! I have been asking you for ages to produce them!
NOT colored by anti-Semitic prejudices!! :-)
What that? I'm asking because nowadays anti-Semitism is used to label your opponent in order to shut him up. If you mean to say that I have anti-Jewish prejudices you're wrong. If you keep insisting on telling me what I think, I would rather you provide some proof of my alleged anti-Semitism. Otherwise it make you sound like a troll. Given a very real possibility you not even Jewish, you better come clean.
The "facts" are any decently documented history of Europe:-) Ever read any, save for revisionist toilet-paper rags privately printed 'cuz no publisher worth their salt would even attach their name to such filth??!
To Lyzko & Ironside; re. the notion of " 'beggars' can't be choosers...(as emigrees)": (From archives of PF)
sjam Edited by: sjam 16 Oct 2009 A LOT of Polish people emmigrated 2the U.S. Between 1890 or so and 1905...a large number of Germans emmigrated2 Texas. Mainly land-less tenant farmers who responded2 adverts offering large tracts of free farm-land to "German" farmers...
Back to my distant relatives & their mystery Queen Mary manifest details: They were definitely NOT farmers. Once settled in TX, they had servants doing their household cooking and chores. [I wonder if THEIR parents emigrated to the US to claim free land in TX between 1890-1905 which would have allowed them to have been naturalized and/or born themselves in the USA.] I was told they had lived somewhere in Poland before WW2... ...many missing details.
Regarding the topic of this thread, I've read many reports of both forced and voluntary "conversions" of Jews to Catholicism. The Donmeh of Turkey represent another variation of this phenomenon, having "converted to" and "publicly practicing Islam" though remaining crypto-Jews privately (cf. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6nmeh). Throughout history, true Catholics have routinely become martyrs for the Faith rather than to deny it before forced conversion. In fact, Canon 1325 REQUIRES such martyrdom of Catholics. I know of no such chutzpad practice among Jews facing forced conversion. Does anyone? I sometimes wonder if Mohammed learned kitman and taqiyya from encountering crypto-Jews?
I'm not sure what conclusion, Lyzko, you're trying to draw by your last statement (Spain)? My last comment was addressing imposture-of-conversion vs. martyrdom--a distinctly DIFFERENT set of realities. Personally, as a practicing Catholic, I do NOT consider crypto-Jews, crypto-Muslims, crypto-Masons, etc. as being CATHOLICS under any circumstances. Christ Himself says he will "spit out the lukewarm"! One does not "pretend" Catholicism before a God who reads men's hearts! Apparently, Stalin, Mao, Castro, etc.--other Luciferians had the same view whereas they simply murdered those who confessed Christianity--knowing they could not "re-educate" such persons. Among Jews who "converted" to Catholicism--I would ask: Did they ever publicly RENOUNCE Judaism? Unlike the imposture popes since the 1958 coup: There is no such thing as "Judeo-Christianity". You're one or the other. Not some chimera of the two.
The "accepted" history aka that acknowledged to be faithful to the facts/truth concerning said events has stated ever so many times that from the outset of their entry into Europe, even preceding Charlemagne by a considerable stretch, it was made clear that the Jews were UNWELCOME visitors to Christian Europe, only permitted to stay, so long as they converted to Catholicism. Those who refused, did so at their own risk.
Indeed, I was NOT speaking directly to your comments with regard to Turkey (in which a far more "liberal", or at least enlightened, atmosphere for Jews existed, but rather about Spain, pardon the unannounced digression:-)
On the subject of Spain, during the Auto da fe, Jews in the thousands were forcibly made to submit to acceptance of the Christian faith and under Torquemada, not to do such, carried extreme perils already discussed in prior posts.
Furthermore, there most certainly is such a thing as Judeo-Christianity, whereby all scholars of religion the world over always refer to the "Judeo-Christian tradition" when speaking of Europe. After all, Christ was a Jew, the last supper was, for all intents and purposes, a seder, and although Judas Iskariot WAS a Jew, it was not the Jews who executed Jesus, but the ROMANS!!!
All true Catholics are bound to believe/profess what the Church teaches through Her approved Commentaries. Regarding your assertions, here is what She teaches:
"But thou wilt say, "The Jews then did no sin in killing Christ, because they merely fulfilled the Scriptures." S. Athanasius (de Cruce) denies the inference. "For they did sin thus boldly against Christ, as fulfilling the words of prophecy, but merely of their own accord, so that the Prophet was not the cause of their acts, but their own free will." See on Acts 2:23. 24.
CORNELIUS À LAPIDE, The Great Commentary of Cornelius à Lapide.
Only those Jews who became Christians are considered "Catholic", such as St. Paul. God sent St. John the Baptist to prepare Jews for Christ, but most Jews rejected his preaching as well as that of Christ in His human Person. The New Covenant replaced the Old One effectively with Christ's Passion/Death/Resurrection. Jews who "convert" either become fuly Catholics or remain Jews--regardless of what they call themselves. Again: There is no such chimera as a "Jew-Catholic"--Polish or otherwise. Hence: "Judeo-Christianity" is an oxymoronic term--admittedly used widely, but incorrect.
Hmmmm, how "true" is YOUR Catholicism then? It sounds all rather hateful to my way of thinking:-) A true Christian is a spiritual being, like Saint Francis, Augustine, or the late Pope John Paul, who openly embraced the difference between Christians and Jews, while ever so lovingly reached out to both groups, while acknowledging the validity of both:-)
Are you therefore a true Catholic or a Sunday hypocrite? Only you and G_d know the answer.
Well Lysko...you really shouldn't tred where you don't know what you're talking about. I won't guess as to your own beliefs, but they exhibit traces of indifferentism and free-thought. Both are considered heretical by Catholicism. Thankfully, we don't need to debate the matter. The established and verified dogmas of Catholicism are presented in DENZINGER, H. - RAHNER, K. (ed.), The sources of Catholic dogma (St. Louis, MO 1954). Therein you will find EVERYONE's true Catholicism. [Regarding your statements, I'll save you some time. cf. DS 1630-1633, and DS 2113-2114.]
web.archive.org/web/20110724134019/http://www.catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma.php Feel free to indulge yourself (for free). (...There's your "loving outreach".)
You're hardly the one to talk about "rude", sir:-) Ever re-read some of your posts??!
In fact, I was merely stating a personal oberservation with regard to Catholic dogma and the Church's century-long stoking of anti-Jewish hostility:-) Sorry if y'all out there find the truth offensive, but on occasion it does taste like a mouthful of worms.
Oh yes, Judeo-Christianity is NOT an "oxymoronic" term. Where did Christianity hail from in the first place, dude?
Oh yes, Judeo-Christianity is NOT an "oxymoronic" term. Where did Christianity hail from in the first place, dude?
...so let me understand your point. You're saying that I should call myself a "fetus-adult" since I "hailed from being a fetus in the first place"? (I find the term demeaning since I try to use my adult capabilities.)
BTW: "dude" - 3. a person reared in a large city. How did you know I was raised in a large city?
It's your choice to embrace either Creationism aka the Bible version of Creation, or, Evolution as propagated by Mr Darwin:-) I'm simply explaining where Christianity cam from, and it derived from Judaism, any half-way competent pastor or priest with an IQ greater than a Chrysanthimum can tell ya that much:-)
Sure you ain't pullin' my leg here just a little?? lol
Lyzko et al: THIS thread is titled to deal with Polish Jews who converted to Catholicism (that's with a Capital "C"). I addressed your smears against the Faith regarding private interpretation of Scripture by referring you to an approved source of Commentary on an approved Catholic version of Holy Scripture. I further directed you to the Source of Catholic dogma (a.k.a. Denzinger). Now you're continuing to try to speak indifferentism and posit your own views of what is anti-Semitism, Creationism, including defining Catholicism itself. This is my last post in this thread as it's clear that you choose to IGNORE the accepted and approved UNIVERSAL guides of Catholicism. I am not interested in and am censured from debate about that precious Faith which my Polish heritage has proven valuable and which my grandparents carried to this indifferentist, free-thinking, North American continent.
Lyzko: It is clear that it is YOU who HATE Catholicism and desire not to know it by its published doctrines. Why you would linger at a Polish Forum where it is likely for Catholics to gather is beyond my patience when you ignore any meaningful exchange of ideas. I wish you well with your meanderings...may you "meander into the One, True, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church of Christ". [The post-Coup/1958 Simulacrum is NOT Catholic anymore. cf. the Third Secret of Fatima and Our Lady of Good Success' prophecies. "Yes": That INCLUDES Wojtyla too.]
What "smears"?? The Catholic faith revolves around the belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of G_d, the Saviour of humanity and the belief in spiritual salvation.
I'm hardly smearing your faith by pointing out certain historical facts of which you seem to have been blissfully unaware, am I? Fact is, Catholicism is an outgrowth of the Jewish faith.
Though Jewish, my wife and I were recently invited by a Lutheran friend of ours to attend a service with him and his wife not far from where we used to live in Queens. During the sermon, the pastor kept nudging the congregation with the "fact" that Christians and Jews share identical roots, though "separated at birth" so to speak:-)
While he clearly made certain congregants uncomfortable, during fellowship after the service, others (NOT I, by the way) roundly applauded his forthrightness and historical veracity, bringing to light the close bond between our two faiths, far too many would rather forget!
Now, is this the rhetoric of someone who "HATES" Catholicism??
In time when first Jews appeared in Poland, Poles still believed in Svetovid and other gods and spirits of our ancient world. Those Jews were traders and bands of slave hunters. By physical appearance they were classical Arab/Semitic looking but with time, due to intensive mixing with native enslaves Sarmatians (ie Slavs, ie Poles), they became white. So, number of Jews raised in Poland with time. Plus, later, many Jews from western Europe came to Poland. Back then, Jews in Poland defined their ethnicity based on their religion. Spreading Judaism meant spreading Jewish ethnicity. More or less, that`s how it is even today. And yes, with time, when most of Poles adopted Christianity and Catholicism, some Jews followed.
Obviously ALL of Europe was pagan or heathen until converted to Christianity!! The early "Christians" were Jews, as were those who followed Jesus in the very beginning:-)
This notion that Christians and Jews are from different planets, so to speak, is not only pernicious, but plain historically FALSE!!! :-)
He is a black dude with a Polish wife, who has been called names while in Poland. So, he is trolling.
The early "Christians" were Jews,
Yes, like all Catholic are now a chosen nation. If you talking about Jewishness on a DNA level there is hardly connection between Jews from the Roman times and from the present. . .
If you talk about religion, the legitimate title of the chosen by the God belongs to Catholic. Also Judaism from the time of the Christ has little to do with Jewish religion today.
You confuse "Jew" (Żyd) with "JewISH" aka the Jewish "religion" (religia żydowska), Ironside!
If you anything about history, which heretofore seems doubtful, you'd know that the early Christians, a number later canonized, were in fact nothing more than Hebrews by birth:-)
Christ wasn't a Christian, any more than, say, Mussolini was a Faschist; the FOLLOWERS of the latter two were respectively Christians, i.e. "those who followed Christ" or "faschisti", that is, those who followed Mussolini.
It's a question of terms and often in a second-language, they can be confusing.
Obviously ALL of Europe was pagan or heathen until converted to Christianity!!
word pagan is pejorative. Its borrowed from Slavic languages, word (particularly in Serbian) - POGAN, POGANIN - meaning: ONE WHO IS BAD or BAD ONE, EVIL ONE and, it refers on people who were loyal to old faith in era when Christianity was imposed on our ancestors (mainly by brute force or by incentives for local nobleman).
, So, in reality, one who worshiped old faith was traditional, loyal to its ancestors, while one who accepted Christianity, forcibly accepted foreign culture.
Fortunately for us Serbians, we still celebrate and practice main ``pagan`` universal Sarmatian (ie Slavic) custom dedicated to ancestors called SLAVA.
Apropos your interesting comments, a number of German scholars have suggested that the German people ALSO never really accepted Christianity along with its concepts of equality before God on Judgement Day and Love Thy Neighbor as well as "God is the Measure of All Things", but remained essentially pre-Christian heathens who continued to bow down to their warrior gods (hence the power of Richard Wagner's operas which apprarently unleashed something primordial in the 'German soul'' or 'anima Teutonica'), later swallowing Hitler's ravings hook, line, and sinker:-)
Don't laugh, instead, read up on the writings of a certain Prof. Helmut Plessner, whose writings on this subject I'm sure have been translated.
The Germanic and Slavic share in common a disdain for what was imposed upon them in an attempt to bring them in line with Judeo-Christian tradition!
Perhaps "nominal Christians" is an appropriate term when speaking about the conversion of the Slavs and other European tribes to Christianity.
Let me just tell that i here don`t question values of Christianity. i just looking on it from the context of the topic here and, suggests that we Slavs (ie Sarmatians) needs to keep memory on our old faith/culture, no matter that we are Christians.
Look at Jews. Since their ethos was formed, they were exposed to all kind of influences but still, they are Jews.
The Germanic and Slavic share in common a disdain for what was imposed upon them in an attempt to bring them in line with Judeo-Christian tradition!
just don`t forget, speaking in modern terms, Germanics are nation, while Slavs (ie Sarmats) are people. Its the very important difference. Germanics lost cultural continuity with old Sarmatians, while are Slavs still Sarmatians.
As for term `Judeo-Christian`, i would be more specific and name it `Semito-Christian`. Its because Romans themselves were combined Semito-Sarmatian (ie Slavic) derivation. Then, in addition, more Semitic influence arrived with Jews.
Precise terminology is very important. Take also this example... Term Byzant is about 200-250 years old. Its invented by Rome. In reality, for people on terrain, for example Serbians (who were exposed equally to western and eastern Roman Empires), existed only one term all the time- `Romeji` (Romans), for both- East and West Romans, even later when only East Romans remained. You won`t find single medieval Serbian source that speak about Byzantine Empire but always about Empire of Romeji.
German people
German people is just one of many western European (European and not only European) nations that were formed from assimilated Sarmatians (ie Slavs). Just 500 years ago most of them was still Slavic (ie Sarmats). Actually, most probable that all Whites originate from Sarmatians. Its only unclear when Sarmatians appeared on historical scene. Few options: 1. Parallel with Neanderthals as separate species; 2. Parallel with Neanderthals and interbreed with them and then they combined to give one, to say that way, super-culture/genetics; or 3. when we speak of our ancestors we in fact speak of Neanderthals who were in long period of time exposed to wave after wave of darker settlers from Africa and Asia.
Much in your comments seems both far-fetched as well as reliant on half-baked and semi-scholarship never really taken seriously in academic circles. Doubtless there is a thin layer of historical precedent, yet scarcely enough to warrant worthwhile comment.-)
First of all, the so-called Proto-Slav was allegedly Rurik and while there certainly was considerable cross-pollination of races and tribes throughout the continent of Europe during the "Voelkerwanderungen", the Germanic people descended from around the area of what is today known as Gotland in Sweden (known historically as "Geatland" and possibly of the Goths themselves).
Political realty demand scientific correctness. It was our people- ancient Sarmatian (ie Slavic) civilization that is in constant defensive and so, winners- the nations, wrote the history. Still, they themselves left enough traces in their sources that we easily can conclude inevitable. Plus, there are our sources and data of many different scientific branches.
Book reviews at ---- justice4poland.com - Jewish Anti-Polonism --- library.flawlesslogic.com/poles.htm = 'Our RACE is our Nation' - Jews have no Hebrew Blood = Khazars... Palestinians are 80% Hebrew = Semites. - Jews are not Hebrews --- gbe.oxfordjurnals.org/content/S/1/75.full
Archives - 2010-2019 / Genealogy / How many Jews lived in Poland and did they ever convert to catholicism, if so when?
