Petrzywalski family

My family name is Petrzywalski. My great great grandfather, Johan Sigismund Petrzywalski, was born in Leipnik in the Czech Republic but I have no details of his parents. Is Petrsywalski a Polish name?

PETRZYWALSKI: Looks as though this originated as a Polonized toponymic nikcname for someone from Peterswald (Peterswood). or similar.

Theoretically - yes, statistically - no. The database Moi Krewni shows zero such surnames in Poland. Stankiewicze.com website mentions Petrzycki, Petrzykowski, Petrzakowski, Petrzak and Petrzik but not Petrzywalski. Google shows many Petrzywalski entries, but none of them in Poland - as far as I can say. Specifically there are zero entries for [Petrzywalski Lipnik], even though there are many Lipnik villages in Poland.

You said that your ancestor was born in Czech Republic (Bohemia at that time, under the control of Austria). Why should his surname be Polish? I am almost sure that surname Petrzywalski is a germanized version of Czech surname Petřvalský (using Polish digraph rz, and substituting v by w and ý by i) - which having two diacritics was not likely to be properly rendered in USA, England or elsewhere abroad.

I think you have made a mistake with Leipnik: there is no such name place in Czech Republic nowadays - unless it was written so in old German spelling. There are however two Lipnik name places there:

1. Lipnik, 15 km south from Třebíè (by road), Moravia, Czech Republic
2. Lipník nad Beèvou, a small town 33 km east from Olomouc, Moravia, eastern part of Czech Republic.

There are 680 Google entries for [Petřvalský Lipnik] - some of the referring to #2 above. There are also 230,000 Google references to Petřvalský.


Actually, I was right, but I did not pay close attention to this entry:


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipn%C3%ADk_nad_Be%C4%8Dvou

Hi Shirley,

My partner's family live in Australia and are Petrzywalski's. Johann would be one of their ancestor's. Her great, great grandfather is Ralph Petrzywalski, and her grandfather's uncle is Edmund Petrzywalski who served in the French Canadian Army under Peters. Subsequently the family changed their name to Peters. You may find also a Dagmar Petrzywalski who was murdered in England, which is her grandfather's aunt and he remembers playing in her backyard. They also believe that it is a Polish surname, but we had had no luck in finding out it's origins. I have also heard the possibility of it being from Peterswald. There is a possibility that in the immigration to England the spelling may have been incorrect in translation. But in my searches I have also come across the connection to Austria in a census record, which I believe is a John Sigismund Petrzywalski (perhaps changed it to john on immigration or a misspelling). My partner and myself have changed our surnames back to Petrzywalski. Soon we will be on Ancestry.com to try and have further access to all the information. Would love to know the connection from your family to ours.

Hi JBelle

This is amazing. Had started a message to you but it disappeared so may have pressed send too soon or deleted it by mistake. Will repeat what I said just in case

Ralph was my father's uncle, my great uncle. He spent every Christmas with us after his wife died so I knew him really well.

Have been researching the family for about 8 years so have put loads of information on my family tree on Genes Reunited. If you contact me there, I can give you access to view.

Are you Edmund's child? Ralph had two children Joyce and Edmund. Last I heard, Edmund was living in Rhodesia but did he move to Australia? Is he still alive? Is Joyce still alive?

There is a book about to be published on Dagmar's murder and we have been seeking people who knew her. I have two surviving Petrzywalski uncles - John and Malcolm. John was too young at the time to remember anything and Malcolm has dementia so can't remember much either.

Jan / Johann / John Sigismund / Zigmunt Petrzywalski was born in Liepnik, aka Lipnik, in the Czech Republic but considered himself Austrian. He moved to Paris where he married Salome who came from Ribeauville in Alsace, France. They moved to London about 1856 and set up a very successful Viennese bakery. They had 4 children, the eldest Eugene, dying shortly after he was born. Ralph and my grandfather George were children of his youngest - Francois Raphael Jules Petrzywalski. Clearly the least successful of the family who ended up living in a ramshackle bungalow in Kent. He died months before Dagmar's murder.

Polish Forum now thinks the family name may be a german version of a Czech name - Petrvalsky and lots of them are living in Lipnik.

Both names Peters and Petrzywalski are on my birth certificate. But I know that both my father and Ralph changed their names legally (by Deed Poll) to Peters just after WW2.

Would love to hear from you by email

Shirley - your third cousin

There is one or two name places Peterswald in Germany, but there are also several such names in Czech Republic.

First, there is a small village Petrovice (German Peterswald) in Ústí nad Labem District . Probably of no interest.

There is also Petřvald u Karviná (Polish: Pietwałd , Cieszyn Silesian: Pietwołd, German: Peterswald), a town in the Karviná District, Moravian-Silesian Region, Czech Republic, in the historical region of Cieszyn Silesia, population 6,967.

But the most interesting is Petřvald u Nový Jièín (Nový Jièín District), (German: Gross Peterswald), a village and municipality in Nový Jièín District in the Moravian-Silesian Region of the Czech Republic, population 1806. It has two parts:

+ Petřvald
+ Petřvaldík
Petřvald at Karviná and Petřvald at Nový Jièín are 27 km apart.

Petřvald u Nový Jièín was established as a Petrovice (Petrovicz) by Peter son of Herold in 1267. When Peter Meissner, a German by birth, received Petrovice fief, he called it Peterswald and he signed his name Peter Meissner von Peterswald. He was later ennobled and was known as Petřík from Petřvald.

By 1359 his family (originally coming from Silesian noble family) acquired Peacock coat of arms.
Another documented owner of Petřvald stronghold was Petr Meysner, married to Markéta from Skalice, Frýdek-Místek (27 km ESE). They had daughter Katharina and two sons: Petr and Jan Hanuš. At that time another family appears over there: Petřík (married to Cecilia) and Pavlík (married to Anežka) from Žeranovice, Spruce coat of arms. They and their chidden (Pardus, Jan, Anna, Markéta, Jiří and Jindřich) used the names Petřvaldský from Petřvald.

The wikipedia link in Czech below, has a long description of Petřvald, its Petřvaldský owners and other related noble families.
cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet%C5%99vald_(okres_Nov%C3%BD_Ji%C4%8D%C3%ADn)

"Reporter" from genealogical and heraldic club, House of Culture, Ostrava,
historie.hranet.cz/heraldika/zkgho/zkgho35.pdf
mentions under the date 1670 Jan (Hanuš ) Zikmund Petřvaldský becoming a guardian of Mikuláš Forgatsch orphans, and a husband to widow Johana Barbora Forgatsch.
Apparently Jan Zikmund (German: Johann Sigismund) was a popular combination of given names in Moravia. :-)

Hi Jbelle

Just realised that you would be the grandchild of Ralph's son Edmund, named after Ralph's brother Edmund who died at The Somme. Edmund senior has both a gravestone at The Somme and his name carved in the Canadian war memorial. Spectacular monument and graveyard well worth seeing if you ever come to Europe. He emigrated to Canada aged 22 claiming to be a farmer from London. He died at age 26 in 1916.

What was your father's name and do you have any aunts or uncles?

My father was Jules Stanley Petrzywalski, first cousin of Ralph's son Edmund, your grandfather. He was about 15 when your grandfather was born. Jules had a sister Olga and two much younger half brothers John and Malcolm who would be about your grandfather's age. He lived with his grandparents, Ralph and Dagmar from age 5 when his parents split up and divorced. He was therefore very very close to his aunt and uncle. If Edmund knew Dagmar he almost certainly knew my father, John and Malcolm. Not sure if he would have known Olga as she went to live with her mother. He may also remember my father's first wife, Phyllis.

The family were always convinced their ancestors were Polish Jews escaping persecution. My research finds this is likely to have been a family myth based on the name. They may have no connection with Poland that I can find and were Roman Catholics. Both Johan Petrzywalski and his wife Salome are buried in the Roman Catholic part of the cemetery at St Mary's, Kensal Green, London and there are no jewish or secular marriages in the family.

Johan is sometimes listed at Petrzyvalski in French certificates and this would have been the german pronunciation of the letter w. Coming from Alsace, his wife, Salome Ehrhardt would have been both French and German speaking.

Fab to find the connection - I'm really excited. Which part of Australia are you from? Are you related to Jessica Petrzywalski the train guard who was attacked at work twice last year? And do you know Chantelle Skye Petrzywalski who posted a message on Facebook?

This now makes me your 4th cousin

Shirley xx

Oh Shirley

this is all so exciting :) I am Chantelle Skye and my partner is Jessica, yep the one assaulted last year. She was glassed in the face during an arrest. She was born as Peters, but last year before the incident we both changed our surname to Petrzywalski in honour of her family and to continue the name on when we have children.

Edmund, or Eddie as he is known is still well and truly alive and living with his second wife Valerie. I have let Jess know that you are looking for people who knew Dagmar in hope that her grandfather can share some information for you. Eddie married Pam Coles and they lived in Kenya where their only child Stuart Hugh was born. Not sure of the year they moved to Australia but I can find that out, where Stuart married Lisa and had 3 children, Jessica Anne 28, Zoe Jane 23 and Cale John Edmund 23. Stuart has gone on to have 2 more children with his current partner,Tayla Amelia 5 and Kian Bailey 2. Jess and myself are the only Petrzywalski's in the family, with the rest going by Peters.

They all believe the Polish history as well, but I haven't been able to find anything that has hinted at that. I think we may have busted that myth :) It is still an interesting history I must say. Jess and I are very keen to see Edmund's grave site and this is in our pile of important places to visit. We were going to one day head to Poland to see if we could dig anything up, but it really looks like that is no longer required. Jess, myself, Eddy and Valerie live in Perth. The others live in the Eastern States. Where are you living?

Chantelle xxx

Hi Chantelle

I can't get over having found some relatives at last.

I live in Birmingham, England close to the Warwickshire Cricket Ground. I spend quite a bit of my time researching the family trying to trace my father's mother who never saw him again after he was five years old. Several of my holidays are spent visiting places connected with the family and I intend to visit Leipnik in the Czech Republic soon to see if Johan's parents are buried there.

If you do go to France, do visit your x4 great grandmother's home town of Ribeauville. It is stunningly beautiful just outside the Black Forest - very mediaeval in architecture. Her parents came from Strasbourg.

I was brought up in Ruislip in Outer London with my younger sister Susan. I have three children - a daughter Krissie Dawn Haigh now aged 32, and identical twin sons Kieran John Mallon and Paul Damian Mallon aged 30. Paul has a step daughter Katie aged 8 and his own daughter, my first granddaughter Leia Sophie Mallon aged 8 months. Krissie got married last year, Paul is engaged and plans to marry May 2014 and Kieran has a steady girlfriend.

I moved to Birmingham to go to University where I met and married my husband. We are now divorced and he has remarried.

The Petrzywalski family were very secretive. My sister and I were not allowed to meet many of the relatives for reasons that I don't know about but have made me compulsively curious. My father went to great lengths to prevent us going to Ralph's funeral and apparently there was hardly anyone there. There were hints about a falling out with Joyce and Edmund but I've no evidence for it.

Ralph lived in Woking in Surrey and when he retired he moved to the seaside in Essex - a little place called Holland on Sea near Clacton. He was a real character.

Has 'Eddie' explained that his mother was colourful as well? Her name was Elena Ousova, and she came from Russia. Ralph met her on a boat and always claimed she was an escaping princess. On their marriage certificate she gives her father as an Engine Driver - not very royal. She was instrumental in the capture of the man who murdered Dagmar. It is a fascinating story. But weirder than that, I was contacted by the descendant (great nephew) of the murderer and have spent quite a bit of time with him. If you Google Harold Haggar, you will find lots of information. Between us we have lots of information about the police investigation and the trial.

Does Edmund remember his uncle George, my grandfather? And Francois / Francis and Mame Ann his grandparents? I'd like to know more about them.

Love and hugs

Shirley

I have found few details that might be of interest to you. Your ancestor, John Sigismund Petrzywalski was going by the last name Petrziwalsky in the year 1858. According to London Gazette, July 23, 1858 a man named Johann Von Nepomuk Siegmund Petrziwalsky, of Pall-mall, in the county of Middlesex, applied for a patent for the invention of improvements in the manufacture of bread, and in the apparatus to be employed therein on the 20th day of July, 1858.

Notice the swapping of the characters "y" and "i" in his last name: Petrzywalski vs. Petrziwalsky in his early years in England. Compare it to the Czech spelling (with diacritics) Petřvalský.

"Johann Von Nepomuk" translates into English as "John of Nepomuk" or "John Nepomucene". The Czech version of this name would spell "Jan Nepomucký" or Jan or Johánek z Pomuka. The confusing thing here is the geographical name "Nepomuk". The place was originally called "Pomuk", but it was later converted to "Nepomuk". And since the prefix "NE" stands for "NO", this have become a source of great puzzling confusion - at least for the uninitiated people like you and I. :-)

Anyway, whether it was Pomuk or Nepomuk, Jan of Nepomuk has become one of early Czech Catholic martyrs (1345 - 1393). He was drowned in the Vltava river at the behest of Wenceslaus the IV, King of the Germans (formally Romans) and Bohemia.

The interesting fact, in relation to your great-great-grandfather, is that he carefully specified whose Jan he had referred to. In the Roman Catholic calendar there are many days devoted to various saints. The name Jan appears there about 40 times in a year. There is a day devoted to Jan Baptista, Jan z Dukli (patron of Poland and Lithuania) and Jan z Nepomuka, etc. My great-grandfather used to stress that his patron was Jan of Dukla, so his name-day was in September - not in June 24, a day devoted to John the Baptist. But he did not have it written down in any document; while your ancestor of two generations before stated it very clearly.

It is worthy to point out that today's Czech people are quite agnostic; nevertheless the Roman Catholic Church is one of the strongest religions there: about 60% Czechs are unaffiliated, there are about 2.1% Protestants, 8.8% unspecified, 3.3% belonging to other religions and 26.8% belonging to the Roman Catholic Church. I cannot pre-judge whether or not this is a strong proof that he was Catholic rather than Jewish, but this is something to think about. Obviously a visit to Lipnik (on Beèvou) cemeteries, especially the two Jewish ones (The Old and the New) should help you very much in this matter.

The London Gazette is quite an interesting source of information about Petrzywalski family. On November 19, 1878 it puts a notice regarding claims against estate of John Sigismund Petrzywalski, Baker and Restaurant Keeper, who died in or about the month of June, 1874, on or before the 16th day of December, The notice mentions his wife Salome as the executrix of the said deceased.

So 16 years later he is already known as Petrzywalski, not Petrziwalsky.

A dozen or so years later, The London Gazette, December 10, 1890 prints the notice about dissolving the partnership in the business of Bakers and Confectionere between Charles Jean Joseph Georges Petrzywalski and Samuel Garner.

But this is not the end of the story: The London Gazette, 6 September, 1927 posts a notice by your Great Uncle Ralph:


london-gazette.co.uk/issues/33309/pages/5784/page.pdf

Well, to complicate the naming issues. There are other variations of the Pet... spelling. Moravske Noviny, year 1868. mentions H. Petrziwalski from Lipnik - a mayor of Lipnik, I think? This time the name has two "I" characters.

Oh, and check this: kdejsme.cz/prijmeni/Pet%C5%99valsk%C3%BD/

This is a current distribution of 81 Petřvalský surnames in entire Czech Republic. They mostly live in Moravia: 13 in Rožnov pod Radhoštěm, 9 in Frýdek - Místek, and only 3 in Lipník nad Beèvou, where your ancestor Jan Zikmund came from.

Dear Boletus

Wow!. Thank you so much. Will try to follow up the distribution of Petrvalsky's and the mayor of Lipnik in 1868, possible brother

The use of the double 'i' in the name appears in a birth certificate of one of his children in Paris in 1855 but not the one born in 1856 (said Charles JJT Petrzywalsky) so he may have used it interchangeably himself. Having a 'name' day does also point to Roman Catholicism and he did marry in a Roman Catholic church in Paris.

Johan set up a Viennese bakery in London, just off Piccadilly, in about 1857 when he moved his wife and son from Paris to London. It was very successful and is mentioned as a must visit place in the Gentleman's Guide to Europe at the time. We have receipts from Buckingham Palace and the Rothchild's so it was obviously considered high class. He died on 15th June 1874 and his wife carried on the bakery with her son, Charles JJT, for many years.

His son, Charles JJT, was a bit of a character. He liked to show dogs and won early Crufts' with a Great Dane and a Black Pomeranium. In fact, he founded the Great Dane Society of the UK having changed the breed name from German Boarhound. After he sold the bakery and restaurant, he bought a hotel in Margate which he ran with his wife until they died.

As you say, a visit to Lipnik cemeteries seems the next best move. Is there a local archivist or source of birth certifcates etc that I could contact there?

Thanks again

Shirley Mallon

Hi Shirley,

sorry its been a bit since I've replied. Jess has a cousin, whom I believe is Joyce's son, Guy. He lives in Sweden. He is doing a look into the family's history as well. He is quite interested in getting in contact. I would love to keep in private contact with you, please email us on jessandchan(at)me.com. (it won't let me do the at symbol)

Talk soon
Chantelle xxxxxxx

Hallo,
The surname Petrzywalski is based on the name of villidge PETŘVALD,situated in the Nový Jièín region, Moravia, Czech Republic, There was the residence of the noble family PETERSWALDSKY, (in czech language PETŘVALDSKÝ).

Good luck!
Petřvaldský