I'm not convinced that being a "great speaker" is so important. Knowledge of teaching methodologies, personal relations with the clients and so on are important, but being a "great speaker" only really comes into play at the C2/IELTS 8+ level. Most students aren't anywhere near that level, so in this case, it's pretty much irrelevant.
As for "native standard" - current best practice is to avoid using such terminology. It's meaningless and cannot be critically assessed.
Most of you guys must be foreign or have a widget up ur butt.
First of all, I can hold my own the nest of them, and I've had multiple English friends review this thread and comment that there's nothing different they would say, and nothing imperfect abt anything I have said, except for a few typos, which have nothing to do w teaching and only to do w the inability to edit posts in these forums.
Anyway, most of you guys obviously need to get a life...sad that you can't offer productive input to a caring and nice person that's posting here...clearing no one so fast reply has any interest or need in any English instruction, so most of your comments are for sport.
Again, as few of you seem to realize, in spite of the fact that I have already demonstrated superior English skills here, and have awesome client reviews and employer rankings -- teaching English to Polish people -- the key thing that makes someone a great teacher is less abt the subject, although I have, although I clearly have a strong mastery of English, than abt what it takes to actually teach, inspire, reassure, etc.
While wishing you good luck, maybe you don't have any network after 6 years of teaching in Warsaw because of your personality. You know, when someone feels so superior to everybody, they end up alone and miserable.
Worth pointing out that there are some people on here that are very well connected in Warsaw (InPolska being one of them...) and that being rude to them isn't always the best idea, especially as there can't be many Ukrainian teachers of English in Warsaw with an impressive teaching history in one of the biggest schools in town.
You know, when someone feels so superior to everybody, they end up alone and miserable.
Yet in this case ProfTeacher is superior to all the other English teachers on this forum. InPoska is a little French girl living in Poland, that has relevance to this thread ?
and I've had multiple English friends review this thread
Doesn't sound like ProfTeacher is alone and miserable to me.
@ Vincent, I define 'native standard' as using grammatically and idiomatically correct English, pronounced without any discernible foreign accent. An authentic regional British accent is acceptable, though Received Pronunciation (RP - the accent used by educated people from London and the South East of England) is preferable.
Yes, a person with an accent or who makes some idiomatic errors but who is a great teacher could help a pupil to speak English to a high standard. But their speech will never be to native standard unless they also invest a lot of time conversing with genuine native speakers.
@ Vincent, I define 'native standard' as using grammatically and idiomatically correct English, pronounced without any discernible foreign accent.
That's a pretty poor definition, because you're ignoring a huge amount of native speakers of English in the process. Most native speakers of English would be rather offended to hear that only British accents qualify.
Yes, a person with an accent or who makes some idiomatic errors but who is a great teacher could help a pupil to speak English to a high standard. But their speech will never be to native standard unless they also invest a lot of time conversing with genuine native speakers.
Not really. Genuine native speakers - what is it? Is someone from sarf London really a native speaker?
As I said, the whole idea of a "native speaker" is under huge question now, and many prominent linguists (such as David Crystal) have thoroughly mocked the idea of it.
Professional empowerment through imperturbable self confidence in nearly any field can be both a help as well as a hindrance:-) A number of years ago, a visiting English adjunct professor from Germany visited our college and gave a presentation on various hints and tips for foreigners learning English as well as English native speakers learning a foreign language as adults. On the whole, the gentleman spoke almost unaccented American English, the idiomatic flavor sounded practically flawless on every level! It was then however that the third part of the presention appeared on the power point screen: "SPEAKWORDS IN THE TOTAL WORLD". Patiently (but no-end irritated, I freely admit!!) I sat and listened in rapt attention to the conclusion of the lecturer's talk, politely applauding, as were we all.
I then raised my hand during the question and answer session, inquiring as to whether just perhaps the last power point number might have actually meant "PROVERBS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD". I was then sharply corrected, that as a (presumably) monolingual American, I naturally wasn't aware of the difference between "speakwords" vs. "proverbs", furthermore, that "in the total world" was what he learned at Maximillian-Universitaet in Munich, and was perfectly correct English, end of discussion.
Obviously, the fellow had mistakenly transferred the German "Sprichwoerter" (literally "speak words") into to English and may not have known, or inadvertantly forgotten, to write "proverbs. And yet, the arrogance of his upbraiding remarks to myself, a fellow colleague, was so off putting, I only need here to caution our Professional Teacher against similarly overweening instances of such hybris:-)
Anyway, good luck. My writing was not intended to offend anyone. I met at least two great language teachers on this forum (one Polish teacher and one French teacher). No reason why a great English teacher can't be here.
I very simply presented my credentials and capabilities in case someone needs some English instruction on knows of someone who needs wants English instruction.
I never said I was superior or expressed any superiority, except I have said that I am good at what I do and have been top rated by both my students and employers for more than 20 years.
Then, I have basically been attacked by numerous people here, claiming that I don't speak English well-enough (rubbish), that Polish people won't hire me (many satisfied Polish students disagree), that I should teach Russian (huh?)...then, people start volleying back and forth over their own or someone else's expressions or grammar....such silly things...like a bunch of children.
Of course, not everyone has been this way, and I do appreciate the earnest and respectful perspectives and insights.
Lyzko...this reference to this German speaker has no connection...he was factually wrong and otherwise sounds like an idiot.
I'm not sure why you bring it up or what point you are making. Surely, there are plenty of bad teachers and egomaniacal idiots in this world.
Does make me wonder, though, what universal proverbs he was identifying for the audience. Anyway, I'm not a lecturer on linguistics or language instruction. I'm a language teacher. I know how to help people learn...to make the experience as fun, interactive and effective as possible...and ultimately, learn as much as possible in as little time as possible.
Englishman -- speaking with or without an accent is irrelevant to being a good and effective English speaker or English teacher. Such comments are elitist and off the mark.
Any Polish student speaking English will have an accept, and that's quite OK.
To begin with, there are so many accents among English speakers themselves, that it's not as if speaking English is itself monolithic...take some rednecks from Alabama and put them in a room with some hicks from Maine and some spoiled housewives from Long Island and you'd have quite a cocktail of accents...but ultimately, they'd all be able to communicate (despite the fact that they probably wouldn't agree on much).
Then there are a few unlikely local phrases, such British people saying "brilliant" over something that's neither brilliant nor particularly exciting....but it's a common expression...to "boot" and "bonnet" which mean very different things in the UK and America. But these differences are quite limited and quite irrelevant to effective communications.
Some of the most successful business people I know operate in English with a strong foreign accent.
And there are those who say a foreign accent in English is downright romantic -- hats off to the French on that one..although I am often told a Ukrainian accent in English sounds very pleasing -- but the point is that an accent has nothing to do with being an effective communicator (I could make a case it could make someone a better communicator because people pay more attention)...but there are good English teachers from native speaking counties like the UK, US, and Australia, and good English teachers from foreign countries around the world...the difference in teaching skills and teaching ability is not related someone's native language.
@Proftea: the problem when studying with a NON native of target language is that sudents shall not hear correct pronounciation and accent, shall not speak properly and as a result shall not be able to function in native environments. Of course, they are a lot of varieties of English and a lot of different accents (same for most languages) but all of them are NATIVES whereas English is no native language in Russia, and in Ukraine (just to stay on subject). Personally when qualified natives are avaiable, even if their prices are higher, I would never learn a language with a non native because I want the REAL thing and most people feel this way and that's why natives come first. NON natives only get the crap jobs natives don't want (too early, too late, too far away, not enough money).
I have met numerous of Polish (since we are in Poland, at least I am, and I have the right to be, family ties, property owner and tax payer ;)) students who officially had a B1 or even a good B2 level(s) in French and who studied with only Polish instructors the result is; wrong pronouncation and accent (besides some sounds not existing in Polish, Poles NEVER know how to deal with final consonants and with the "linking" (I tell students, just be like apes, mimic NATIVES and you won't be wrong ;)) and also were not able to communicate with natives and above all were not able to understand natives. Personally, in Poland, I have NEVER met a (Polish) instructor knowing French properly. I met one though who had a PhD whose French was brilliant but I would never hire him as it was too academic, too old fashioned (sort of ... 18th century ;)), just theory and cut off from reality. Languages should be taught from the A1 level on by qualified natives.
In big cities of Poland, there more than enough natives of English so no reason to study with NON natives.
Sorry, but your superiority feeling (your message no.37 written yesterday deserves a medal) may be your ennemy. Since your are so superior to the rest of us, I wonder why you are here and above all, why you don't get enough work.
(PS: Pro: I have a Master's Degree in Foreign Language Education from an American university (I am no back packer)).
@Lyszko! "lol"! I have had numerous examples too and of course, like in your case, they pretend to know "better" than natives. I see this at least several times a week in Warsaw... Believe me, I do dare correcting them...
Sorry, InPolska, there's just no evidence/support for your claim that it's important to be a native English speaking person in order to be a good or great English teacher...and the wide variety of English accents negate your whole point.
What is important is a teacher's capabilities (basically combination of knowledge, demeanor, and experience) and thus his/her track record; here I shine with many years of experience and many satisfied clients.
Also sorry InPolska...I've reviewed my posts with so-called "native English speakers" and they have said there's nothing different about a how a native English speaker would have phrased my comments and there's nothing to indicate that I am not a native English speaker. Moreover, they generally gave me high marks for what and how I have said. You just seem like a big ole bucket-o-negativity and I guess nothing is going to change that...
Delphain: good point, we're not talking C2 level here, just up to B2.
As for the superiority comment, some of you miss an important subtlety in English and duality in this case: I was not saying my English is superior to anyone here or superior to anyone in specific, but rather was using the word "superior" to mean "generally excellent" when I said I "demonstrated superior English skills" as in a good, better, best...here, superior is basically used in contrast with poor and average.
On that note, ladies and gentlemen, have a good day doing whatever it is that you do or don't do. I suspect based on the feedback above that ZL 80/hour is probably a more appropriate rate for someone of my level of capability and experience. I am confident that if someone were to meet me, they'd have no issue with my English language capabilities and hiring me over some as yet unidentified native English speaker with less skill and experience. I make a good first impression, get good results, and have the client testimonials to back it up.
there's just no proof to or support for your claim that it's important to be a native English speaking person in order to be a good or great English teacher...and such a wide variety of English accents to make the whole point moot.
I agree. IN fact if anything, non native speakers make better teachers as they have learnt the language to a v high level, and know a lot about grammar and how to learn languages. Something which, sadly, many of our 'native' teachers are lacking.
If English is to be an international language of communication, we need international people to teach it. People should stop being so provincial and precious about it.
I agree with much of what you said. The point I was making was simply that as a non-native speaker teaching a language not completely one's own, one must be DOUBLY, indeed TRIPLY certain (moreso even than a native speaker) that what is being taught is as faithful to the natural idiom, inflection, above all usage, of the target language as humanly possible. The proviso/disclaimer in both our cases as responsible "professionals" beholden to the ethics of our chosen trade, is that we let our students know ( only if push comes to shove, of course) is that we are NOT native German resp. English speakers, and therefore will always defer to an educated native speaker whose feel for their native tongue is unerring:-)
I did that before starting as a college German instructor and I trust you do the same.
IMO both kinds of teachers have something different to offer. Ideally they could be paired up to work as a team. We did this at one UK uni for the summer English program - each non native (and there were quite a few, as it was an international kind of place) was paired up with a native speaker.
My partner was a PhD student/part time English teacher from Syria. He did the 'grammar' lessons and I did the fun, colloquial stuff. Fine by me, and no complaints from students either..:0)
Teaching in-company is not the most reliable way of making a living. Businesses often cancel lessons at short notice due to meetings, etc. You should try to negotiate a deal whereby you get paid if the compnay cancels a class with, say, less than twenty-four hours' notice. 80 Zł is at the low end of the spectrum. I charge considerably more and have the aforementioned arrangement.
Roger5: Thanks...I was thinking ZL 80 was low, but I was being talked down by others...I already have a job...I am just trying do better, make more money...I thought hooking up 1 on 1 with a company or companies with both private and intra-company group lessons. Thanks for your tip: yes, I agree there should be ca cancellation policy.
As I said many times before on the PF: why not try to learn English with the BBC? They're experienced, reliable, native-level teachers of English. And they don't charge you ZL80 per hour!
David Crystal's articles on the "native speaker" concept are certainly worth exploring! As an ESL- teacher, I'm often in the quandry of fluency vs. accuracy. Guess it's an ongoing issue:-)
My 'foreign accent' I mean an accent associated with a country where English is not the native tongue. An American, Canadian, Australian or Kiwi who speaks English with the accent of their home country is a native English speaker, just as a Scottish, Welsh, Irish person or someone from the North of England is a native English speaker, albeit one with a regional accent.
You also mentioned a stereotypical south London accent. Its owner is also a native speaker, albeit one with a (class-based) accent.
That definition simply doesn't work in a linguistics sense. There are plenty of Poles with accents that are almost indistinguishable from someone from America or England, so what about them? They aren't 'native speakers', yet they function as one.
Can you provide a test that would manage to differentiate between a person brought up in Poland vs someone brought up in the USA? There are also plenty of people born and brought up in the UK that retain the accents of their immigrant parents - are they native speakers?
To a NON-native speaker, another non-native might actually pass for an American, Aussie, Brit or Canadian. To a native speaker, there's always going to be a certain gap between acquired vs. organic knowledge. It's like the old saying; "To your mom you're a big shot, to you're best friends you're a big shot, to a big shot...you're no big shot!"
