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Poles claim UK benefits after working only one year instead of going home


Mister H 11 | 761  
16 Apr 2009 /  #121
ImSorry

No probs ;-)

So, if a young UK born lad graduates from University, works for lets say... 2 years, and finds himself a victim of the economy, he shouldn't be entitled to benefits. After all, only two years of "paying in" to the system doesn't really count.

I was talking about people that are new to the country - do keep up ;-)

Assuming that the person in your example had parents with a decent track record of paying taxes, then of course he would be entitled to benefits.

I'm just trying to get away from this "I'm entitled, don't question me as I couldn't really explain how I'm entitled, I just know I am !!" attitude that seems all the rage these days.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
16 Apr 2009 /  #122
Exactly, it's all about information and educating ourselves. I've missed out on a couple of things from being a bit slow off the mark. I put that down to my own folly and nobody elses.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
16 Apr 2009 /  #123
There is little we can do apart from elect a different Government, which will probably do nothing different.

the answer for this thread and similar ones
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
16 Apr 2009 /  #124
People will spend as they see fit but I hope that the crisis has taught people to be more circumspect and responsible. Again, I don't blame people for claiming benefits. They serve a useful function as an interim measure when times get rough. We shouldn't lose sight of this fact. Life costs, period!!
VerbaVeritatis - | 26  
16 Apr 2009 /  #125
Well two of my friends invested about 20.000 £ each and opened sucesfull bisnesses there ...and they are not only ones.

But of course! Immigration has many faces. I socialize with well-educated Polish people and there are many of them here, simply Daily Mail don't write articles about them... I can understand that you are angry with benefit thieves. The same is in Poland: people (in general) don't like to pay taxes for lazybones and swindlers. Our parents have been paying taxes their whole lives and, (thank god), they don't even need a doctor their whole lives. If my mum has a cold she calls private doctor to pay her a visit etc. The only exception was probably my birth, lol, as I was born in a local hospital. So what? Should she moan about paying for some lazybones who, for example, draws pensions they are not entitled to? It's the way society is built, right? I really think that the majority of Poles came here to work and earn money, not to draw benefits. Now, think about it this way: my boyfriend works, pays taxes and lives here and he has never claimed a penny neither has he used public services, that's to say he is paying for his compatriot who temporarily need some help, right? And he is happy to do that, because "No man is an island, entire of itself"
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
16 Apr 2009 /  #126
True enough, VV. I don't use public services either but the point is that we still have access to them. I don't mind paying for the upkeep of some others who need it. It's a question of balance :)
VerbaVeritatis - | 26  
16 Apr 2009 /  #127
I wonder how many Poles claims benefits in comparition to those who don't. How many Poles are (or was) in the UK and how many of them claimed benefits? Any statistics?

Not to mention that Poles probably don't have 4 / 5 kids each... I don't think the Poles are your real problem.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
16 Apr 2009 /  #128
I don't think the Poles are your real problem.

I think because of the numbers that came from Poland it has made them a target, I personally would rather have the well educated Poles here than certain other minorities.
IronsE11 2 | 442  
16 Apr 2009 /  #129
Bollux are they entitled. It should be based upon what you've paid in and a couple of years is nothing.

The welfare state simply does not work like that - it can't. There will always be people who pay more than they take and vice-versa. Are you suggesting that you should only be entitled to claim an amount of benefit based on your NI contributions? If so, what's the point of paying NI? Surely the government should ablolish it, and allow people who are earning to save for their own rainy day? Those who have never earned (including disabled people) should be left with nothing?

A great number of benefit claimants claim IS/JSA(IB) from their 16th birthday to retirement age with full HB/CTB, CHB and Tax Credits to boot. These people are net benefiters from the system, in fact they will never contribute. The person who earns £150,000 a year and never claims these benefits is a net contributor, they will never take. That is the welfare state.

Some people have lived and worked here all their lives and get told that they don't meet various requirements for this, that and the other.

If you have been making NI contributions continuously for 6 months then you are entitled to contribution based JSA for 6 months (i.e. you can receive benefit regardless of your partner's income or your capital/savings). After that, it is means tested. If you satisfy the criteria you will receive the benefit. Do you think that someone who has £500,000 in the bank but has worked for 20 years should continue to receive JSA indefinitely?

You got benefits after only working here for three years - think yourself lucky that you got anything at all.

In the case of A8 countries, the applicant must have registered to work and been in employment for a year. If they meet this requirement and are made redundant then they ARE entitled, as long as they satisfy the right to reside, HRT etc.

Assuming that the person in your example had parents with a decent track record of paying taxes, then of course he would be entitled to benefits.

LMFAO - You honestly think that benefit entitlement should be determined by the amount of tax your parents paid? My old man was a director of a massive company and paid more tax than I will ever earn. He doesn't claim a state pension because he doesn't need to and doesn't want to, despite the fact that he is entitled to it, and has made the NI contributions. Should I be able to claim this? After all, he is my daddy ;-)

All my friends work and pay a lot of tax and NI and have done for many years...so don't give me that **** with the "lots" of indigenous people are lazy blah blah blah......

You are right, there are many hard working Brits, but also plenty who claim benefits. I should know! You shouldn't get so offended when people claim that "lots" of indigenous people are lazy, the fact is "lots" are.

I personally would rather have the well educated Poles here than certain other minorities.

What about the uneducated Poles?

I wonder how many Poles claims benefits in comparition to those who don't. How many Poles are (or was) in the UK and how many of them claimed benefits? Any statistics?
Not to mention that Poles probably don't have 4 / 5 kids each... I don't think the Poles are your real problem.

Relatively few, most Poles come here to work. If they can't then they would rather live in Poland than claim benefits in the UK. Poles aren't the real problem, work-shy, unskilled, benefit dependents are. There is a benefits culture in this country which, despite what Shelley will tell you, transends race/religion.

Like I have previously said, I audit benefit claims for a living so I would know...
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
16 Apr 2009 /  #130
Not to mention that Poles probably don't have 4 / 5 kids each... I don't think the Poles are your real problem.

True. And the vast majority of Polish migrants are in their 20s and in fairly good physical condition - not likely candidates for hospital treatment.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
16 Apr 2009 /  #131
Are you suggesting that you should only be entitled to claim an amount of benefit based on your NI contributions?

Isn't that tehnically what they do at the moment? You have to have paid in for a certain amount of time before you can claim.

Surely the government should ablolish it, and allow people who are earning to save for their own rainy day?

I opted out of SERPS so, technically you can do that.

If you have been making NI contributions continuously for 6 months then you are entitled to contribution based JSA for 6 months (i.e. you can receive benefit regardless of your partner's income or your capital/savings)

Not really true, if you have savings of £16,000 or more you can not claim JSA.

LMFAO - You honestly think that benefit entitlement should be determined by the amount of tax your parents paid? My old man was a director of a massive company and paid more tax than I will ever earn. He doesn't claim a state pension because he doesn't need to and doesn't want to, despite the fact that he is entitled to it, and has made the NI contributions. Should I be able to claim this? After all, he is my daddy ;-)

I think you knew what he meant, or did you just want to mention that your dad was sucessful?

What about the uneducated Poles?

Dont you think we have enough uneducated people of our own?

Like I have previously said, I audit benefit claims for a living so I would know...

In your spare time when you're not on here? Kind of figures now why the system is in such a bad state when half the staff are wasting time on the internet! Before you start on about me being on here, my salary doesn't come out the tax payers pocket!

There is a benefits culture in this country which, despite what Shelley will tell you, transends race/religion.

Not sure what that stats are Irons....but women from certain minority groups are less likely to ever work due to cultural issues.
Wroclaw Boy  
16 Apr 2009 /  #132
You both need to quit your day jobs. Come on over here and join the party.

Irons only averages 15 posts a week.
VerbaVeritatis - | 26  
16 Apr 2009 /  #133
True. And the vast majority of Polish migrants are in their 20s and in fairly good physical condition - not likely candidates for hospital treatment.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. We are young, healthy, educated and able to work. We don't breed like rabbits and we are quite friendly and eager to know other cultures and people. What more can you expect from immigrants? Fluent English? This will soon become the norm. I'm not talking about opening the borders on purpose, because it was not up to me to decide to do this.
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
16 Apr 2009 /  #134
we are quite friendly and eager to know other cultures and people

Well, let's not go that far! You seem well educated and keen to get on, but For every one of you, there are a dozen manual labourers who just want to get some quick cash and go home again ASAP.
VerbaVeritatis - | 26  
16 Apr 2009 /  #135
Is "eager to know other cultures and people" synonymous with staying in the UK forever? :)
Mister H 11 | 761  
16 Apr 2009 /  #136
The welfare state simply does not work like that - it can't. There will always be people who pay more than they take and vice-versa. Are you suggesting that you should only be entitled to claim an amount of benefit based on your NI contributions?

I'm just saying that there should be more of a link between the two, so that bonehead chavs that come from family where whole generations haven't worked, don't get such an easy ride.

LMFAO - You honestly think that benefit entitlement should be determined by the amount of tax your parents paid? My old man was a director of a massive company and paid more tax than I will ever earn. He doesn't claim a state pension because he doesn't need to and doesn't want to, despite the fact that he is entitled to it, and has made the NI contributions. Should I be able to claim this? After all, he is my daddy ;-)

Enjoying laughing your f*****g ass off. As Shelley said, you knew what I was getting at.

If your dad is so rich, then why are you working in a dole office ?

There is a benefits culture in this country which, despite what Shelley will tell you, transends race/religion.

I know.

Not sure what that stats are Irons....but women from certain minority groups are less likely to ever work due to cultural issues.

Exactly. Do you think that the brides in arranged marriages that were shipped over here 15-20 years ago flourished and are now fully contributing members of society, or are some simply non-English speaking baby-machines that have no choice but to rely on the state ? The system encourages life-time benefit dependency.

We don't breed like rabbits and we are quite friendly and eager to know other cultures and people. What more can you expect from immigrants?

As Mr Bubbles said, for every one of you there are many others with totally different agendas.
IronsE11 2 | 442  
16 Apr 2009 /  #137
Isn't that tehnically what they do at the moment? You have to have paid in for a certain amount of time before you can claim.

Not at all. As I said:

A great number of benefit claimants claim IS/JSA(IB) from their 16th birthday to retirement age with full HB/CTB, CHB and Tax Credits to boot. These people are net benefiters from the system, in fact they will never contribute

I opted out of SERPS so, technically you can do that.

I was referring to means tested benefits.

Not really true, if you have savings of £16,000 or more you can not claim JSA.

Not true, that only applies to means-tested JSA (Income based). JSA (Contributions based) is non-means tested, payable for 26 weeks maximum, and is based on NI contributions:

I think you knew what he meant, or did you just want to mention that your dad was sucessful?

I think he was suggesting that benefit entitlement should somehow depend on how much tax your parents paid. I merely used my old man as an example of how silly this concept is. The fact that he was successful is not to my credit, which actually helps to illustrate my point!

Assuming that the person in your example had parents with a decent track record of paying taxes, then of course he would be entitled to benefits.

So If I was made redundant after working for two years, I would be entitled to benefits? But if someone who had been working for the same amount of time, but whose parents were unemployed was made redundant, they would not be entitled? That is ridiculous.

Dont you think we have enough uneducated people of our own?

We do. I was enquiring as to whether you would prefer uneducated Poles or highly educated, skilled people from "certain other minorities". Well?

In your spare time when you're not on here? Kind of figures now why the system is in such a bad state when half the staff are wasting time on the internet! Before you start on about me being on here, my salary doesn't come out the tax payers pocket!

Irons only averages 15 posts a week.

We've been through this and you post far more frequently than me. I paid my first visit to this site just before I finished work at 4:30. I made one post (which was benefit related anyway) ;-). What about you? I don't deny that there is to some extent, an unproductive culture in parts of the Public sector, but I am pretty good at my job and work hard enough. Am I wasting tax payers money by being here... well technically yes. Are you stealing from your company by doing the same... yes. You shouldn't throw stones from that glass house of yours ;-)

but women from certain minority groups are less likely to ever work due to cultural issues.

That maybe true. I'd also point out that Muslim women are far less likely to become teenage mothers than white, indigenous women. Just think of all that Income Support, Child Tax Credit, CHB, Housing/Council Tax Benefit.

Not that I actually care, but seeing as you like blaming everything on particular minority groups and all.

the system is in such a bad state

Don't get me wrong, our benefits system could be improved in many ways. But as with many problems, it's easier to pick holes than to find improvements. We have a benefits culture problem, and the current legislation doesn't effectively address the situation. It's all about finding a balance, which is easier said than done.

I'm just saying that there should be more of a link between the two, so that bonehead chavs that come from family where whole generations haven't worked, don't get such an easy ride.

I totally agree.

Enjoying laughing your f*****g ass off. As Shelley said, you knew what I was getting at.

Yeah, but it was a bit of a silly idea. Don't take it personally.

If your dad is so rich, then why are you working in a dole office ?

I don't live off my old man and I don't work in a dole office.

Exactly. Do you think that the brides in arranged marriages that were shipped over here 15-20 years ago flourished and are now fully contributing members of society, or are some simply non-English speaking baby-machines that have no choice but to rely on the state ? The system encourages life-time benefit dependency.

True, just as it encourages teenage pregnancy... House, benefits... if you don't need to work then why would you bother? Like I said, identifying the problem is one thing, introducing effective legislation to deal with the problem is another.
VerbaVeritatis - | 26  
16 Apr 2009 /  #138
As Mr Bubbles said, for every one of you there are many others with totally different agendas.

Oh really? Such as?

As I said before: do you know how many Poles claims benefits in comparison to those who don't? Could you please enlighten me about this statistic?

May I ask what are you doing on this forum? You seem hostile to Poles. Is it the reason?
Mister H 11 | 761  
16 Apr 2009 /  #139
Yeah, but it was a bit of a silly idea. Don't take it personally.

It wasn't an idea, more a train of thought - thinking aloud if you will.

You know the voice over in the AXA insurance advert, about not wanting to beat the system, just wanting it to work ? That's how I feel.

I think he was suggesting that benefit entitlement should somehow depend on how much tax your parents paid.

Only from the point of view that when someone is the child of someone that has lived off benefits pretty much forever, it should have an effect on what they can take from the system in the future.

So If I was made redundant after working for two years, I would be entitled to benefits? But if someone who had been working for the same amount of time, but whose parents were unemployed was made redundant, they would not be entitled? That is ridiculous.

And the current system isn't ridiculous ?

As I said before: do you know how many Poles claims benefits in comparition to those who don't? Could you please enlighten me about this statistic?
May I ask what are you doing on this forum? You seem hostile to Poles. Is it the reason?

You've been on the forum a day and think you know me ?

I think if you ask any of the other regular posters, I think many will say I'm one of the more balanced and measured British people that post on here.

I'm not "hostile" towards the Polish as you put it, I just don't think that there is anything wrong in debating difficult subjects. I'm not here to get at people.

In terms of statistics, these are the only recent ones I could find:

"In total 895,000 Eastern Europeans have been allowed to work in the UK since the EU expanded to include Eastern Bloc nations in 2004. Of those registered, 199,677 are in receipt of hand-outs, including child benefit, jobseekers allowance and housing support.

However, the figures only cover up to September last year.

In August 2007 there were 112,000 Eastern Europeans claiming £125million a year. That is now expected to soar to £200million."


Taken from: express.co.uk/posts/view/92468/-200m-benefits-bill-as-out-of-work-Poles-flood-back

You have to admit that it's a pretty hefty amount of money going to people that aren't British and weren't born here.
eddie61 - | 2  
17 Apr 2009 /  #140
Kasia501

I dont have anything against other EU residents claiming benefits, but from what I know about Poland's Child Benefits, the rate is only a fraction of what ireland pays out. For one child in Ireland its €166.00 per month. Whe the 10 accession countries joined the EU back in 2000, a limit of the rate of benefits they could receive should have benn put on them for a probationary period, knowing that there would be ahuge influx of immigrants into those countries which paid out a higher rate of Benefit.
VerbaVeritatis - | 26  
17 Apr 2009 /  #141
Mister H - I said that we don't breed like rabbits and are quite friendly and eager to know other people. You said: "for every one of you there are many others with totally different agendas" What do you mean?

It means to me that for each (normal) person there are many others with different descriptions. I'm asking "such as?". Could you be so kind, and answer my question?

As for me and as for now your statement is contemptuous.
With regard to this statistic, it seems that for each 1 claimant there are 4,5 people who had never claimed a penny, right?
IronsE11 2 | 442  
17 Apr 2009 /  #142
Only from the point of view that when someone is the child of someone that has lived off benefits pretty much forever, it should have an effect on what they can take from the system in the future.

A child in this situation is more likely to be benefit dependent, as it is all their family has known. This benefit culture is a way of life for some. Aside from educate, what more can the government do to change this attitude? They can stop paying benefits, but this is will most likely lead to an increase in negative social externalities such as an increased crime rate, homelessness, child poverty etc.

There is a new government scheme designed to get Incapacity Benefit claimants back in to work (or at least prevent them from being "signed off for life"). It's called Employment Support Allowance and involves regular work capability assessments. Will it work? Who knows. I have a feeling it will essentially just be Incapacity Benefit with another name.

You have to admit that it's a pretty hefty amount of money going to people that aren't British and weren't born here.

True, but we are members of the EU, and therefore citizens of member states are entitled to claim here, as long as they satisfy the HRT. The restrictions are for A8 countries, meaning there are more barriers for them to claim (i.e. they have to register to work, and work for a year prior to claiming).

There are loads of German, Spanish, Italian people claiming benefits in Britian, but British people also have the right to claim in their countries. I'm pretty sure that if I moved to Germany and satisfied the authorities that I was habitually resident, I would be able to claim benefits, despite never having paid tax there. Maybe someone who is familiar with the German benefits system could confirm as much?

That's how I feel.

Ditto, but like I said, it's easier to pick holes than to find viable solutions.
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
17 Apr 2009 /  #143
Is "eager to know other cultures and people" synonymous with staying in the UK forever? :)

Not necessarily, but I know a few Poles who have gone to the UK. Most do what a lot of English do when they come to Poland - load up with supplies from home, get an internet connection and sit in with their friends / fellow expats in the evenings. Kind of a siege mentality. It's the same with any nationality. These people will usually go home after they've saved enough / had enough of the country / finished their contract. If you stay and integrate, you're one of the unusual ones ;)
Mister H 11 | 761  
18 Apr 2009 /  #144
Mister H - I said that we don't breed like rabbits and are quite friendly and eager to know other people. You said: "for every one of you there are many others with totally different agendas" What do you mean?
It means to me that for each (normal) person there are many others with different descriptions. I'm asking "such as?". Could you be so kind, and answer my question?
As for me and as for now your statement is contemptuous.
With regard to this statistic, it seems that for each 1 claimant there are 4,5 people who had never claimed a penny, right?

All I am saying is that our lax approach to everything linked to immigration (including things like benefits) is causing problems - mainly for the immigrants/migrants (or whatever the current accepted term is) themselves.

I can only speak from the personal experiences I have through the job I do (which is essentially debt councelling/collecting) as that is my main contact with foreigners. I can't give you links to articles or statistics to back it up, although I'm not changing things to suit me - I'm not your enemy.

I've spoken to many people (not all Polish, but certainly quite a few) that seem to be in such a rush to "make it" that they are making some really bad choices. This seems to be often linked to marriage and kids (children that are being born here and from someone that was single and childless when they arrived), but not much thinking seems or planning seems to be involved. They certainly don't seem to care too much who the sperm-donor is.

Why would someone, 3-5 years into their "new life", want to end up a single-parent, not working, on benefits, in debt and on the council house list ? Is that really better than life in Poland ? If it is, then maybe some do secretly plan it ?

During the conversations I have with them, they are always keen to point out that their children are "British Citizens."

It could just be a class thing and maybe those at the bottom of the social-heap would consider almost anything for this much sought after "better life" to be a risk worth taking.
derek trotter 10 | 203  
18 Apr 2009 /  #145
It could just be a class thing and those at the bottom of the social-heap would consider such a life as a risk worth taking.

It could be right direction in searching answers why some people have such plans
VerbaVeritatis - | 26  
18 Apr 2009 /  #146
Why would someone, 3-5 years into their "new life", want to end up a single-parent, not working, on benefits, in debt and on the council house list ? Is that really better than life in Poland ? If it is, then maybe some do secretly plan it ?

Well, Polish people here are in a "productive age", that goes without saying :) Have you seen how many UK-born women on PF write about being pregnant with a Polish man without having solid relationship with them ? Not much thinking seems to be involved...

A story old as time itself...
Mister H 11 | 761  
18 Apr 2009 /  #147
Indeed. I hope you don't still see me as hostile towards your people.
mkpolka - | 3  
17 May 2009 /  #148
Mister H

You sure come accross as hostile. Maybe you might need to think how you frase your sentences if you do not wish to come accross as so.

On the subject:
Benefits claims system is well suited for abuse. i am saying so as a polish person having lived there for 7 years. I always worked, paid taxes and I must add : have never claimed any benefits, although my daughter have been treated in English hospital. For which I am thankful as she got fantastic care. Th fact that my husband is English should not have been an issue in this matter as the impotrant thing was a sick little girl that needed care. NHS is one of the things that Britain should be really proud of. Having said that my daughter got sick when we were in Poland. We had to pay for hospitalisation as i have not been working there and contributing to the system. All have been covered by insurance paid by myself before we left. It brings me to the issue of what is fair. I have been working and contributing to UK system for 5 years (not the Polish one - hence my benefits would have been declined). In England, if my doughter or myself get sick we should be able to get the help. On the other side if my husband moves into Poland with us, is there a reason why he should not be entitled to heath or any other care over there( after let's say a year), after he worked and paid his dues?? From what i understand there are plenty of English people living and working abroad, not only in Europe.

We live in Australia now and i do see large influx of Enlish ex-pats, having sold their english properties for a lot, coming here and buying regular Australians out of the market. After 3 years they can apply for Australian citizenship and claim all the benefits they want. Without ""having to pay taxes"" for 20 yrs or contributing in the past in any shape or form. Some would say that might be unfair.

What we all have to understand is that it is an open world, people move and make a living where they can. As long as they obey the law, pay taxes and raise their children properly it shouldn`t matter where they from.

The entitlement to 3 bedroom house with nice garden and a nice car is not only for the British to have. We all should be allowed to strife for it if choose to do so.

PS Mister H's use of "strawberry pickers & toilet cleaners"" expressions i find very offensive. I would like to know whether Mister H, having been made(hipoteticaly) to leave Englang and move to, let`s say Brazil, would be able to get a banking job straight away or reverse to strawberry picking or toilet cleaning??
Mister H 11 | 761  
17 May 2009 /  #149
Mister H

You sure come accross as hostile. Maybe you might need to think how you frase your sentences if you do not wish to come accross as so.

If I'm coming over as hostile, maybe I've hit a nerve or two with you ?

It's not my intention to offend or upset people, quite a few on here have commented that I'm pretty balanced and fair in my opinions.

We live in Australia now and i do see large influx of Enlish ex-pats, having sold their english properties for a lot, coming here and buying regular Australians out of the market. After 3 years they can apply for Australian citizenship and claim all the benefits they want. Without ""having to pay taxes"" for 20 yrs or contributing in the past in any shape or form. Some would say that might be unfair.

With respect, you're cherry-picking what I've said to suit your own interpretation.

I'm not saying that people have to pay taxes for 20 odd years before they can consider themselves entitled to benefits etc, I'm simply saying that those that have paid in for so long are bound to feel slightly narked when people receive more, having paid in a lot less.

The entitlement to 3 bedroom house with nice garden and a nice car is not only for the British to have.

I've never said that it is, again you're being very selective. I've no issue with people having anything that they want, as long as they pay their own way and don't expect it handed to them on a plate.

PS Mister H's use of "strawberry pickers & toilet cleaners"" expressions i find very offensive.

I've re-read my posts on this thread and can't find me saying anything like that, but you have to admit that that's a reasonably fair description for large numbers of migrant workers. They're not all architects, doctors and lawyers are they ?

I would like to know whether Mister H, having been made(hipoteticaly) to leave Englang and move to, let`s say Brazil, would be able to get a banking job straight away or reverse to strawberry picking or toilet cleaning??

I'm sure if I was to try my hand working in Brazil, I would end up cleaning toilets or sweeping the streets as my language skills wouldn't qualify me for anything else. I'm perfectly happy to admit that I wouldn't get far in any country that didn't use English as the main language. I've never tried to claim anything else.
niejestemcapita 2 | 561  
17 May 2009 /  #150
I can only speak from the personal experiences I have through the job I do (which is essentially debt councelling/collecting)

No offence, but that is a Fecker's job....:)

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