The un-acceptable side of new entrant countries coming to the UK

Sunday Times article 25th Feb. 2007 is trying to show up the un-acceptable side of new entrant countries coming to the UK, the figures used are very challengeable...purely because no one really knows!

They estimate the numbers of Polish people who are sleeping rough over in London and paint anecdotal pictures of a few people who have had hard luck, or failed to plan successfully in their new country.

Plus again highlighting that you can't claim any benefits unless you have been in work for 12 consecutive months...and then only for a limited period.

Yes no doubt the will always be a percentage of failures and things not working out as planned but as per their front page on the magazine...they are now hinting that the "welcome" is wearing thin, and that ...enough is enough.

I suspect...as usual this is the standard method by which the UK uses the media to run their monthly scare story to distract and keep our our eyes off just how difficult thing have become for the local tax payers.......in other works sensationalist....bullsh!t...IMHO.!

They don't really highlight just how many people have been working her for the last 2-3 years...very successfully...or indeed the vital pool of money the UK has provided for seasonal/student type workers.............make your own minds up people...don't believe the hype !!!!!!!!!

never do hun :)

Plus i rarely believe anything that is printed in newspapers as more S*** comes off the pages than from an arse!!! :)

on my drive back from the airport i heard about 3 polish lads who had been set on in baisingstoke... no details... is this what the future holds...?

i think this is the article that you tak about frank... if others want to read it...

timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1417269.ece

off thread - T, sim card will be in the post tomorrow

back to topic

Ta (dzieki) hun :)

What amazes me is this attitude wasnt about when the 1st generation of Polish arrived in the UK in 1945 onwards and established themselves and made homes for themselves here ????? So has society developed an attitude problem ???

I read the article and found nothing wrong with it. It highlighted problems and this can only be a positive thing rather than people burying their head in the sand.

The article was interesting in that nothing in the detail backed up the headline that Poles (and others from the A8 countries) were going back home en masse. Of course it is possible to find people who have had problems since arriving in the UK. We have homeless people too. The problem for Poles is that they have no access to the welfare state benefits when things go wrong - unlike economic migrants from non EU countries who often can sponge off the state. Just another catchy headline with limited intellectual content to the body of the story. I remember when the Sunday Times was a well written and balanced newspaper. Pre Rupert Murdoch times, sigh.

But that nothing new for us, we have no access to the welfare state benefits in Poland either.

Can you please explain why anyone should be given hand-outs??? If someone is foolish enough to travel to another country without the means to support themselves until they get settled or the contacts in that country then they should not travel to that country in the first instance.

Annia

As a brit I would absolutley LOVE it if immigrants had no hand outs. My point was that many do and that the Poles and other A8 people do not. Much of the resentment against immigrants to the UK from us locals comes from their being given housing, welfare benefits and access to our overloaded health and education services often at the expense of our own people. That is why most of us welcome the Poles because you tend to work hard, pay taxes and take no welfare benefits (at least until they have worked here for 12 months)

We are a soft touch for economic migrants thanks to our open door immigration policy introduced (without ever being in an election manifesto) by our wonderful current government

We are bound by the UN to take a certain intake of immigrant i.e. those from Africa, those that don’t speak English and those that get the hand-outs, good old UN, did you know that there are certain politicians that are actually in favour of pulling the UK out of the EU because of the influx of immigrants and the over crowding in the UK, people say that just as many people leave the UK a year as are coming, this is just not true the amount of people leaving the UK has decreased significanty over the last 2 years.

I welcome anyone that is prepared to work hard and not for less than the rate that a British worker will work for; people say that the economy is flourishing because of the new wave of workers. What people are not taking in to consideration is the fact that the new wave of workers are not spending the kind of money that the British spend, this is how the economy is being affected, luxury goods, cars, electrical goods, clothes (purchased from places other than the lower end of the market), we see an increased debt of the average British person due to borrowing, credit cards, store cards etc., these are things that need to be taken in to consideration when welcoming the new wave of workers, people are borrowing more in order to sustain the standard of life they were used to before wages started to decrease.

I will see many responses to this, that will say I am wrong, but if anyone knows even a little about economics then they will at least understand what I am trying to say.

As for being a soft touch, this is true, but the attitudes of the government are changing due to the general public's response to the wave of immigrants.

Annia

I fully agree Annia. And it is not just debt for individuals. Our current borrowing asa nation is through the roof. So much for the 'prudence' of our government. The levle of the National Debt is the highest for over 40 years. The bubble will burst for the UK economy very soon

Annia,

Yes, that you don't understand economics. Personal debt is not a function of immigration.


Really?

ostrichfs.co.uk/IVA-News/National-debt-tops.html

The National Debt tops £500 billion for the first time

The scale of the national debt is probably best expressed as a percentage of national income (GDP). On this basis, the level of government debt remains much lower than it has been in past years. Indeed it is lower than the level that the Labour Government inherited when it came to power in May 1997. However, the rise in the accumulated level of unpaid government debt is a result of a run of years in which Gordon Brown has run budget deficits.

statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=206

I agree with that like a Pole but taking thing logicaly: is a fault of Poles OR other immigrants or goverment or...? If somebody has got economic knowledge about it could explain to laics here and then we can understand it better without quarreling which is pointless without solid background and knowledge.

That article was such trash that I don't think i'll bother to buy the ST anymore.

It claimed all the Poles were going home, then throughout the article provided evidence to prove that the poles were NOT going home. This was the root of their problems. Completely self contradictory.

It was poorly written, based on rare exceptions rather than common occurances, and even had such trashy quotes as 'If the Germans and the Italians are allowed in here after what they did during the war, then why shouldn't the Poles who fought and died for us be?'

That last comment sounds like the argument an 11 year old boy would conjure up.

Probably the most blatantly obvious thing was that the article had nothing to say.
How are the homeless polish any different from the homeless english, pakistani, indian, east african, irish or any other?

It made no mention of the poles involved in crime, car theft, drugs and money laundering.
It made no mention of the polish on polish crime such as job selling, protection etc.

It tried to establish a class barrier between post-war poles and new arrivals.

I can't go on, i feel sick

I stand corrected. However, if you take into account the prospective funding required for an ageing popoulation in terms of pensions and services, the size of the problem continues to grow without any clear strategy for resolution. Add to that the relatively low interest costs currently needed to service the debt then this country has a problem IMHO.

I think that military involvement over seas has contributed significantly to the debt, so has unnecessary spending in the capital and the mismanagement of funds and the need for more and more literature to be printed in 70 differently languages and more and more translators, there are many factors, I do hope that the bubble will not burst, at least the Bank of English increased rates to try and halt the soaring house prices, I think we import far too much and export far to little and this has an impact on the coffers, driving farmers in the debt, now it is the turn of the dairy farmers, they are being forced to sell their milk at a price they cannot sustain a life off, we are slowly but surely running the country in to the ground. Outsourcing call centres, nice cheap labour but at what price? I would hate to see another recession in the UK but when all said and done, that is the way we are heading, looking at the latest statistics for home repossessions, it is on the rise which is always an indicator.

Bank of England, not the Bank of English -

I think that Britain's economic state is exactly what you would expect of a non-manufacturing country which is relying on "invisible earnings" for its income, while spending on capital purchases abroad.

This is scarcely affected by immigrants; because who sends the most money out of the country?
Is it the economic migrant, living and working here while taking a pittance home once a month?
Or is it the Brit buying a holiday home in Spain or Bulgaria, while puchasing his new BMW and a Czech Toyota for his wife, and possibly booking overseas holidays too.

I drive a Jeep (Austrian), ride a Triumph (Taiwan) and a BMW (Germany) and my wife has a Japanese 4x4 too. As I look around, the only thing I have that was built in the UK is a horse trailer.

Fortunately for the country, almost all my work is for Oil & Gas projects overseas, so I bring in money from Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Egypt etc and spend most of it here; in living expenses.

Before we throw stones (metaphorical) at migrants, we should all study our own financial input and output, and then ask how our country can survive economically.

Trade barriers work in both directions. As older Soviets say,"under communism we didn't have choice of food to buy, but at least when we reached the counter we could afford to buy it". That friends, is the cost of a free market.

I'm not bitter, just an engineer who has seen his country cast aside a rich heritage of manufacturing to become a high street society. With our government only concerned with High Street Spending, Napoleon was almost right - we are becoming a nation of shop assistants.

The most useful phrase for a British engineering graduate to learn now in several languages is "do you want fries with that sir?"

Poland has already gained some industry (and lost control of its steel mills) and if the work at it, the could have a good engineering future - until the Chinese buy them out.

I support a European Economic Community - warts and all.

good point CS... stating the obvious... shame so many people miss it...

That's a year out of date.

As for personal debt not have an impact on the country I think you are totally wrong. As for foreign vehicles good point, like the Annia said we are a nation of service providers or were until we started to out-sourse that too.

I personally dont see that mass immigration can have a positive affect on the UK, certainly not in the long run.

Sadie

And the correct spelling is Ania not Annia. I don't think you are Polish, somehow..

As for Sadie - outsource not out-sourse and effect not affect.

Britain, unlike most countries in the world, has a fully funded pensions. Its one of the main reasons not to join the Euro, because effectively the national debt of other countries pensions will affect the euro's value/inflation.

Did you know that the UK is the greatest trading country in the world?

What that means, I'm not quite sure... :)

I agree it seems like debt is everywhere, I really like insolvencyhelpline.co.uk, The UK Insolvency Helpline on 0800 074 6918, An IVA or Individual Voluntary Arrangement is an alternative to Bankruptcy. They offer FREE advice as to whether an IVA is a debt solution for you

All public sector pensions are not fully funded. The wonderful index linked pensions for the pen pushers are paid out of the 'current account' The number of public sector employees is growing again. 1 in 5 employed people in the UK works for the public sector so I would dispute that the term fully funded is all encompassing. Although Peter is correct in stating that private sector pension arrangements are funded without impact upon the public purse (apart from the state pension which is pitifully small - all those National Insurance contributions and still can't afford the gas bill!)

i work in the public sector, we have a contributory pension scheme.. I have to admit I havent joined it, even though Ive been here for 9 years.. shocking I know, but truthfully I cant afford the contributions as Public Sector wages arent very high. By the time I retire, the state pension will most likely be abolished. Just wanted to inject a bit of realism into Peter's comment.

Didn't mean to offend public sector worker - honest.:) Pen pushers was an inappropriate choice of words brought upon by the people I am currently working for.

Just trying to point out that public sector pensions are different in that the employes contributions are not invested like in private sector. The pensions paid are out of annual government spending and so are not fully funded, We have to find the money each year and that burden is growing. Pensions in the private sector are a huge problem too. Witness the death of final salary schemes.

well Im certainly not a pen-pusher and any advice on starting a pension plan will always be gratefully received .. I know its important, but I also need to be able to live now

Anybody who thinks the UK economy is failing is seriously lacking in knowledge, What we are building at the moment is basically the British empire all over again. In 20 years time all major European industry will be British owned.

The reason we don't manufacture stuff in the UK is because we either buy or invest in foreign companies and run them in their own countries for much more profit. There is more money coming into the UK now than ever before.

Ethically it's very wrong for the people living in Poland and other countries as they will essentially all be answering to the english in the future

Power and wealth are more important to the English than national identity, that's why the borders are open. The UK has immigration agreements with other countries for a reason. English investment. We'll let your working class into our country if you let us buy out your riches.

The only real future is to make yourself a British citizen whilst you have the chance.

And the basis for this forecast is ?????

Surely, you dont really believe this Lee?

londonstockexchange.com

Go and look at any major player there.


Actually I do, I know some very high powered businessmen in this country. Eastern Europe is no secret and the UK has been doing it in India for years.

I'm not trying to boast or say the UK is better than Poland, I'm just telling what I know because I do this for a living. I have zero patriotic ties to the UK.