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Deals available from Polish property developers


kneehawk 1 | 47  
11 Dec 2007 /  #1
A few days ago i was contacted by a large Polish developer offering me a 5% deposit deal with no loading on a off plan development in Warszawa.This is the first 5% deposit deal that i have ever seen in Poland .

I was wondering if anyone else has been offered inducements by developers to buy off plan in Poland ?
jkchambers 3 | 33  
11 Dec 2007 /  #2
The more attractive a deal looks the more research you need to do. In my experience when offered a very attractive payment method there are two things you have to look at.

1. Am I paying too much for the property.
2. Is the development in an bad area.
Sometimes you have a combination of these.
I am not saying that the development you are looking at is not a good one, I am just suggesting that you look at why he is offering such good payment terms.
OP kneehawk 1 | 47  
11 Dec 2007 /  #3
Thanks JK,
The deal is a very good one,their year end is December and they need the numbers to hit targets.I am more interested in developer deals on offer as a reflection of the slowdown in growth in the major cities with the exception of Katowice and if consistent ,as an indication of a change from the rapid growth of the last 3 years to a steady growth reflected by a soundly based growing economy
gdj67 15 | 154  
11 Dec 2007 /  #4
To answer your question, the developers are getting nervous. They are finding it harder and harder to sell of plan.

Not surprising really - You just have to look at all the developments in Mokotów and Wilonow that are still under construction or planned. There are far to many for the market to sustain the prices they are asking.

Have a look at some of the property sites - you can find numerous properties in these new developments that are nearing completion being of loaded by naive investors that thought they would make a quick buck. In fact you can pick up a 2 bed flat for about 2/3 of the price that the developers were asking this time last year.

Buying this way also means you donot have to pay the rediculous 'staged payments' every few months that most developers want between putting down a deposit and final completition.

Just be careful and do your homework.

G
OP kneehawk 1 | 47  
11 Dec 2007 /  #5
Thanks for your input gdj,but if you can show me a new build flat in a major Polish city that is being flipped at 2/3 of Dec 2006 cost prices then i will happily pay you a fee for finding it for me
gdj67 15 | 154  
11 Dec 2007 /  #6
It may take a bit of time, but you can find them if you know where to look.

From my recollection 2006 prices were 12-15,000/sqm. you can find some now at below 10,000/sqm

Don't take my word for it - see for yourself.

You could also try Mamdom.

Not had any dealings with them but seem to remember a forum member (sorry can't remember their name) having a good experience and getting help with a mortgage.

G
telefonitika  
11 Dec 2007 /  #7
a forum member

eleanor i believe it is
gdj67 15 | 154  
11 Dec 2007 /  #8
Thanks telefonitika, yes I believe it was Ms. O'Conner ;)
andy b 4 | 156  
12 Dec 2007 /  #9
I can't comment on Warsaw, but in Krakow I have seen developer's reducing prices and offering discounts in the past few months. The reality is that the 'golden times' which developer's experienced during the last 5 years (and since EU accession particularly) are over. There is twice as much supply in the Krakow new-build market as this time last year, and less foreign buyers. The developers have to be more accommodating in order to make sales, which is ultimately good for buyers who can now actually negotiate rather than being dictated terms.

At the right price and in the right location, off-plan apartments are still selling like hotcakes to the Polish market. I am marketing a development in Bielsko Biala which is priced at 4350 PLN per m2 (inc VAT) and more than 40 out of 70 apartments have sold in the first six weeks of sales.

On another point, we also do mortgages for foreign investors from our base in Krakow. Our company is called Poland Mortgage Direct, and I have a full-time English speaking Polish staff member who is helping arrange mortgages for anywhere in Poland with six different banks currently. We only deal with competitive banks (bank margins max 1.75%) and it is slowly getting easier to obtain finance for foreigners, though we don't claim to be able to help everyone.

Andy
telefonitika  
12 Dec 2007 /  #10
it is slowly getting easier to obtain finance for foreigners, though we don't claim to be able to help everyone.

who cant you help for example? out of complete curiousity that is me :)
andy b 4 | 156  
12 Dec 2007 /  #11
Self-employed foreign applicants are still difficult to get mortgages for with most banks.
At the end of the day, it is also up to the applicant to be pro-active and provide the documents we/the bank requires.
There are 'banks' (and I use the term loosely) such as Noble and Dom who will seemingly loan to anyone (including asset based applications with Noble), but you will pay through the nose with very high bank margins and lots of hidden fees. There is a point at which getting the mortgage is not really worth it because of the high fees.
telefonitika  
12 Dec 2007 /  #12
seems reasonable enough :)
Cheers on the clarification
gdj67 15 | 154  
13 Dec 2007 /  #13
Andy, have sent you a PM

G
eleanoroconner 4 | 55  
14 Dec 2007 /  #14
Thanks telefonitika, yes I believe it was Ms. O'Conner ;)

Very formal. Yes Mamdom have been good for me both for mortgages and solicitors as well as some of their new build stuff.

There are plenty of developers offering 10/90 or 20/80 deals but check the paperwork very carefully. In one case I found you had to pay an extra 800 PLN per sqm to take advantage of it and in another case the final price was to rise by 1% per month with the interest payeable with the completion payment!

Next year is going to be a great time to buy. There are a large number of developments in Warsaw completing and quite a few foreign buyers who, as someone said, were hoping to make a quick buck.

I believe prices will dip in 2008 because of this - only temporarily as long term demand and supply are clearly going to cause prices to rise. Cheesy though it is I have to say we have "a window of opportunity"!!
gdj67 15 | 154  
16 Dec 2007 /  #15
I believe prices will dip in 2008 because of this - only temporarily as long term demand and supply are clearly going to cause prices to rise. Cheesy though it is I have to say we have "a window of opportunity"!!

Couldn't agree more Eleanor, but I'll be looking at older properties that need refurbishment in Sadyba, or close to £azienki, but then again I've never been one to follow the crowds.

G
BubbaWoo 33 | 3,510  
16 Dec 2007 /  #16
but I'll be looking at older properties that need refurbishment

are you seeing a significant difference in price between old apartments that need refurbishing and those that have already been done to make this worth your while?

in the tri city the price variations are becoming so close that once you have factored in the costs of refurb the margins are often not worth the effort
gdj67 15 | 154  
17 Dec 2007 /  #17
are you seeing a significant difference in price between old apartments that need refurbishing and those that have already been done to make this worth your while?

The ones I am looking at yes, but they are few and far between and you point is well made. I agree there are alot of properties that need refurbishment that are being sold at nearly the same price/sqm as those already done, but I put that down to advise from greedy agents that see an opportunity to rip off niave foriegn investors. Not sure if these prerties are selling as fast in Warsaw, as you say is happening in Tricity though.

And to be honest if people are stupid enough to buy something for an inflated price because they haven't done their homework then I have no sympathy.

As everywere else, there are bargins to be had, but you have to look off the beaten track and know what you are doing. Anyone that thinks it's easy to make a quick buck in the property game is sadly mistaken. It's hard work and time consuming, but yes if you get it right, the rewards make it worth while.

G
lef 11 | 478  
17 Dec 2007 /  #18
And to be honest if people are stupid enough to buy something for an inflated price because they haven't done their homework then I have no sympathy.

Pretty true, however a lot of blame most go to the real estate sharks who have such a spin that they can convince anybody.. there are some on this forum, (hmmm)

The sad facts remains that the profession person has remained in his native country turning over the dollars in real estate, and they wouldn't bother investing in the Polish Real Estate market at this time. We only have a few foreign cowboys who have a great deal of success ripping off there own people!
Ranj 21 | 948  
17 Dec 2007 /  #19
posted by Bubba

but I put that down to advise from greedy agents that see an opportunity to rip off niave foriegn investors. Not sure if these prerties are selling as fast in Warsaw, as you say is happening in Tricity though

this is quite probable but i personally have yet to buy a property via an agent. i source mine through a weekly publication that comes out in the tri city and, whilst looking at prices, largely ignore those placed by agencies. i look specifically for 2 words - do remontu - and these are becoming harder to find and when there, are priced similarly to another 2 words - po remontu

lef - you seem to be opinionated when it comnes to polish real estate, much of which appears nothing more than conjecture - perhaps you could share your post 2004 polish real estate experience with those of us on-the-ground
lef 11 | 478  
18 Dec 2007 /  #20
lef - you seem to be opinionated when it comnes to polish real estate, much of which appears nothing more than conjecture - perhaps you could share your post 2004 polish real estate experience with those of us on-the-ground

In the spirit of xmas and being nice as always, can I just say we all have an opinion about things that interest us, ie real estate. Thank God people who read these notes can form there own opinion and act accordingly.

Well sorry to say so, Ranj I'm not living amongst the fairies but my views on Polish real estate are pretty much spot on, lets wait and see when the sub prime housing crisis rears its ugly head in Poland. There are winners and losers in the real estate trade, sometimes the winners end up being losers. Thats the nature of Capitalism!
aligator_s - | 77  
7 Jan 2008 /  #21
Hang on Lef, didn't you say in another post that Romania or Bulgaria are better investment choices?

ho hum....
lef 11 | 478  
7 Jan 2008 /  #22
Ho hum alright...hmmm... I'm sure many real estate cowboys have already targeted that market in the same way they raided the Polish market some 5 plus years ago.

The facts are that making easy money in Polish Real estate is well and truly over.. (I know the die hearts and people who have a vested interest will say otherwise)

It is still unclear what effect the US prime mortgage crisis (recession) will have on Poland, if unemployment goes up in the USA, GB and Poland this will translate in a housing crash in Poland, I would suggest that it may NOT effect prime blue chip properties in Poland ie Warsaw, Krakow and parts of Tri City, but certainly those who have invested in pre purchase and new developments will have there fingers burnt.

Real Estate in Poland will never be robust till such time as the average Polish worker earn the same as his EU counterpart.
The notion that people from other countries will buy up Real Estate is rubbish, the government will stop this. I doubt if people from GB who relocate to Poland end up staying, I suspect most pack up and go back frustrated and disappointed. :))))
aligator_s - | 77  
8 Jan 2008 /  #23
this gives you a golden opportunity to defend the Bulgarian real estate market.

why is the Bulgarian real estate market a safer bet than the Polish real estate market?
lef 11 | 478  
8 Jan 2008 /  #24
this gives you a golden opportunity to defend the Bulgarian real estate market.

If I was Bulgarian and flush with funds, I would be buying up big in that country.
Its very difficult going solo in a foreign country and engage in business dealings. You need to have a business partner who knows the ins and outs of all the red tape. Getting back to Poland, I believe the days of making a quick buck is well and truly over, It is a good time for a person who intends retiring in Poland to secure a property in a prime location..however you must consider the climate, health care, exchange rate, and how you will support your retirement. People living in the west sometimes don't appreciate how good they have it till they go elsewhere hmmm we all know that living in Poland has its problems..
BubbaWoo 33 | 3,510  
8 Jan 2008 /  #25
The facts are that making easy money in Polish Real estate is well and truly over.. (I know the die hearts and people who have a vested interest will say otherwise)

most of them have been saying this for some time, in fact, youre probably only saying this because youve read them say it
lef 11 | 478  
8 Jan 2008 /  #26
Sorry BubbaWoo but my opinion is my opinion...the bottom line is that sort after properties in prime locations will still increase and secondly a lot of properties were over priced in the first place, and yes you were the one edging people on to buy, reassuring of a good return..hmmm
BubbaWoo 33 | 3,510  
8 Jan 2008 /  #27
firstly, your opinion may well be your opinion but it was someone elses first, which is why you now have it

secondly, if you read my posts on polish property, which judging by the snide comments you leave after them you obviously do, then you will know that what i have said over the past 15 months about polish property has been spot on.

this is because i have firsthand on the ground experience as oposed to secondhand knowledge gleened from the internet, such as you

hmmm
lef 11 | 478  
8 Jan 2008 /  #28
then you will know that what i have said over the past 15 months about polish property has been spot on.

I hope this form of insult has made you happy... Your experience (limited at that) has only covered Sopot and surrounds, your entry into Polish Real Estate has only been short and you know that.
BubbaWoo 33 | 3,510  
8 Jan 2008 /  #29
Your experience (limited at that) has only covered Sopot and surrounds, your entry into Polish Real Estate has only been short and you know that.

yes, and even with my limited experience i still manage to know more than you, which is not suprising given your experience in polish property
lef 11 | 478  
8 Jan 2008 /  #30
Yeah, yeah...I will be in Poland mid year, I will be heading towards Sopot, I don't mind meeting and comparing notes.

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