I am buying a flat near The Old Town in the next 2 weeks and am struggling to find a n independant English speaking Notary in Poland. The vendor says use their Notary but I am concerned about this. Have you used a good Notary I could contact?
Just back from Lodz. Prices rocketing there but is it a false market ? It seems to be all foreign speculators who will be offloading within 2 years. Are any locals buying at these prices? love to know the real story.
Would anyone have any good links/developers/agents in Warsaw or Krakow?
Hi Gloios,
Try making contact with DKM who have a branch in both Krakow and Warsaw and provide Real Estate Agency services at British professional standards to both Poles and Overseas buyers. All their staff speak very good English and they have many options of buying ready built or 'off - plan ' whichever suits you most.
By the way they are properly licensed also - something not many agencies are!
Are any locals buying at these prices? love to know the real story.
Hi Johnny,
My firm is selling many properties in Lodz and whilst many are being sold to overseas investors we also have at least 50% of each development being sold to Locals.
This means two things:- 1. The Locals CAN afford the prices 2. The apartments are attractive to them
It also confirms that this is going to be a good investment and with prices rising in Lodz the way they are and the way they are predicted to continue over the next five years, I would be very confident in buying in good locations in the city.
You can email me for more details if you wish - but the prices are fantastic and the deposit is only 15%
Really - 50% of a development taken by foreigners is a high percentage - to me that is a sign that there is not so much local demand at these prices. And of course eventually for those foreigners to make your much vaunted 30% returns they will need to find local buyers - not easy in a town with a small middle class like Lodz.
Michael C is having professional interest in his posts. beware of his misrepresentions and unfounded claims. he can tell you whatever you want to hear and he is bound by nothing.
his company is not a developer but a sales agent. so better go directly to developer and save the agent's commission. it is as easy as that and do not listen to agents who use the forum to fool people.
sure, no problem with that, he knows what he says about tax and legal issues. but then these are commonalities which one can find in official websites... you need the links?
yet, all the rest is unfounded bull...t sales-talk! the guy tries to make a living by fishing customers in this forum. he is a sales agent - he is trying to push on you an appartment. and in order to succeed in that he will promise you anything. of course, he will not mention troubling things, like for instance that lately prices in krakow are falling slowly... or he cannot really tell you much about renting situation in secondary polish cities... cause there is no any!
not to mention misrepresantion issues. michael is saying in a previous post that his company "...is selling many properties..." Well, from a legal point of view he is not selling anything. the developer is the owner and the developer is selling. michaels company is an agent, which means he brings together the parties, the developer on one side acting as seller and you on the other side acting as buyer so that you come to an agreement and solely you two conclude a sales contract. so to be clear again, michaels company is not selling (as he claims), it is simply acting as an agent on commission.
to put the record straight: nothing against michael who in any other respect may be an excellent person. yet when i see a post saying in so many words: do you know you can double your money by buying appartments in poland? you did not? well, contact us, we are selling these appartments! To such post i feel obliged to answer in a comensurate manner, that is in as blunt words as the sales post is phrased into...
You say & i quote" like for instance that lately prices in krakow are falling slowly"
Can you confirm where you get this info from so as people who are interested in this forum & use its advise & comments by others , can check the validity of your accusations towards MC
Was it in a newspaper article,a TV report,local estate agent infor,The natinal statistics for house price inflation in Poland or specifically Krakow,perhaps some investment forum or somewhere else ,please advise
It would be great if you could put a link to it for everyone to check out
the rednet report on residential property in poland
Dmmmm or whatever...
apart from rednet reports, one can read reports from KPMG and PWC, etc. They all point out to the fact that the crazy ride is OVER! from now on there will be selectivity, equilibrium, adaptation, etc. I hope a prospective buyer checks these reports (which also though can be biased) and put less faith in a sellers comment (in that case michael) that in so many words solicits the ignorant novice.
it comes as no surprise that you wanted to check the validity of my comment and not michaels sales talk validity. you stand to loose more from MY advice to get better informed and stay away from blood thirsty sales agents. i understand your point of view...
today is also on the news that DOM developer (one of the biggest in warsaw) has another bunch of thousands apartments in the pipeline for the capital. where all leads to: stay away and wait. wait till those who buy for investment purposes and pay off with interest only morgages do not get a tenant. the situation will get dramatic in the next 3-4 years. there will be many opportunities to buy for those with cash. now you stand at the top of the cycle. it will become a buyers market soon.
if you have to invest now, go for land. the best you could do - but do not expect any agent to tell you that, they stand to earn nothing from that...
i have just spent 20mins searching KPMG & PWC oland & cant track down the reports that you mention - can you give me a link or let me know the name of the report
sure, no prob, easy as i work for KPMG, send me your email address and i will attach them for you. its not a publicly published report yet, though i can send you the relevant pages... though, i doubt you mean to get informed.
did you check the monthly rednet reports, because you seem to mention nothing about that... hold on, let me guess, you hold in higher esteem the claims of michael c rather than the findings of rednet consulting, right? not really supporting your fake promises for extraordinary profits!
Dmmm or Michael C or in whatever nickname you appear here, pls try to understand that sales talk is not welcome here. in another post somebody said, listen i am an agent, if you want to buy in such and such area, give me a call. that is alright, its direct, its not sublime. you cannot play the smart by giving us sales talk and then try to blind us with "free" advice. your sales talk will be met with fierce criticism. get it?
by the way, is Dmmmm and Michael C the same person? you are both located in london, interested in property and subscribed to the forum within couple of days. and Dmmm is strongly supporting Michael C! many coincedences here....
@ moderator in some forums it is not allowed for members to register under many nicknames. i would say that this is unnice if "one" member declares to be using the forum for sales and ther "other" pays tribute to the first...
as for the rest of the viewers with honest intentions to get informed, here is the link to recently published report about lodz
going back to the original question, which was were to invest, well lodz is appearing as a good bet. however, its not like that that you go over there and you buy an appartment from a developer and you are done! far from that!!! you may be left with a hot potato in your hands.
the only project that makes a difference and its worth its money is the sold out project of uscheiblera. the usheiblera and the manufaktura are in residential and commercial area of investment respectively the most unique projects carried out in europe. as far as i know the rest of the developements are of quite bad quality and they are not worth the price - with possible exception the barzinsky park. developers are making a quicky on the ignorant irish etc...
to say that again: i do not refer to the case of an appartment to stay yourself, i refer to buying appartment as an investment.
buying land in the area around lodz is a top investment choice, yet with many difficulties in carrying out the deal...
Donomar, You accuse michael m of misrepresenting the facts.lets look at you! Lately prices in Krakow are falling slowly. How does that explain the rednet last quarter gain in krakow in excess of 8% . You say that it will be a buyers market soon.Yet you talk about land being a top investment choice(true).Does it not follow that if developers are paying more and more for plots then the price of new build flats will go up !
You talk of the majority of new build developments being of bad quality and not worth the price ,what do you base this on? The Sheiblera development is top end ,but not everyone who rents wants to pay top end rental prices.
You claim there is no rental market in Lodz,according to who? I have been to lodz and spoken to a number of agents ,seen numerous contracts and i simply cannot agree with you.
Finally ,your negativity and frequent inaccuracy in respect of the new build situation in Poland is unhelpful to existing and new forum members looking to invest in new build.
It's great to hear somebody with a positive approach. Poland has a long way to go before prices fall or even level. With over 1.5 million units in shortfall and with increasing land prices coupled with rising costs of building materials there is only one way for the market to go. Leasing multi story cranes is very expensive operation. Why are there thousands of them in the sky?
I just get pissed off with people that spout off on subjects they know nothing about and have no experiance in.It is also annoying to see someone having a pop at an individuals proffessional capacity when they do not know that individual and the standard of service that they provide for their fee.Rather than slate michael first ,why not ask him what services are included in his fee.There are good agents and bad agents, you cannot assume all agents are bad and in any case every investor should conduct their own due diligence.
i am not accusing, just put the record straight. he is not selling, he is an agent looking to find customers for developer so that he takes commission.
may-june prices fell over 5% in wroclaw. may june prices fell less than 1% in krakow. you do not agree with these facts?
the scheibler project is in fact top end. yet average price there was a year ago 4500. investors bought at that price level. now at what price level are you trying to sell to new buyers - mediocre quality? at 5500-6000 pzl, right? as for the renting, those who bought in uscheiblera would be able to offer appartments for rent at better prices cause they bought cheaper - and we are talking about 550 appartments!
i think you have it wrong with renting. poles do not rent appartments from foreigners unless there is an emergency... you say that you have spoken with number of people and seen contracts, your view yet not solid enough! i would count on that to put my money into.
you try to create an euphoria because this helps your sales. well, i am sorry but i will offer my views about the real life situation at the moment in real estate in polish cities. hope people read the posts and make their due diligence before they commit to an investment. they must go independant because the sales agents will tell anything in order to take the commission...
right! well there is no good or bad agent. they are all the same....
they will tell you will double your money, your will rent it no problem, you will you will etc etc. they promise and they say blah blah blah... they will exrpess vague statements, like that many people do these and these things, and i have seen many contracts on the desk of the lawyers secretary, and so on and so forth.
will they ever point out to potential pitfalls? will they ever sweat if you have a problem renting it? will they ever care if after 10 years the building starts decaying due to lower quality of work/material? surely not. once you sign and they get the commission, forget of the them, you are all alone.
if you want to help prospective buyers you can advice them to get a quotation about a project through an agent. but do not sign anything with them. then contact directly the developer. it is as easy as that. and then buyer stands the chance to negotiate a better price. language is not a problem, with 100 plz you can hire a sworn translator for the whole day in any meetings you conduct. you can save yourself few thousands of zloty which you will need in finishing off the appartment, as they all come in black finish.
99% of developers in Poland do not pay commission to agents such as michael.The agents are paid a finders fee by the investor.
In June the prices were readjusted by 0.4% but the overall quarterly figure is still at more than 8% growth.Just because there is a tiny blip in one month,it does not mean the overall trend has changed
I am not familiar with the Wroclaw market so i cannot comment
The situation regarding yield is more complex than you state.A number of investors would have taken out repayment mortgages as interest only mortgages have only recently become available.This means that hypathetically based on the same amount borrowed arepayment mortgage costing 1000zl per month will cost approxamately 700zl on interest only based on swiss francs. This then means that the pricing differential is minimised because of the financial situation
The majority of polish investors tend to look at the short term ie they like to reassign before completion at a profit .If those flats are then reassigned to other investors (they have been selling at over 7000zlm2) then again the situation changes
The final group are those people that payed cash.Are they really going to want to rent out their property at basement levels? They can command a premium especially to the foreign tennants whose rental may be paid by their company.
When a property is rented out via a management company the tennant would not even Know who the owner is and as long as they like and can afford it why should they care!
Why should i try to create a euphoria. I am not an agent as you are once again incorrectly assuming.I am in fact an investor myself with a number of investments in Lodz ,with a lot more to come.
I have asked you this before in a different thread ,but you did not answer.
What is your experiance of the polish property market?
i am sorry but your math has flaws. the merit of any such investement lies with the yield. with pzl interest rate average at 5.5%, adding the costs of managment company without adding the costs for repairs or incidental costs, one should expect roughly speaking a yield of about 9% to meet the costs.
if as you say one purchases an appartment in the area of 6500-7000 plz per sqm, then suppose that you buy an app. of 70 sqm = 490000 roughly speaking. 9% on that amount would mean that you must get by renting it 44000 per year - again roughly speaking. which is 3600 per month. and this is assuming that you rent 12 months full, which is usually not the cases, as gaps of several months are unavoidable. if you know the lodz market, can you seriously claim that standard appartments are rented at that price. i am sorry but this is definitely not the case.... what you mention about companies renting for foreigner employs, this is the rosy scenario but it is only happening still in small scale in warsaw. in lodz it is completely circumstantial.
and do not say that one expects profit from the appartment selling at higher prices later. if you pay 6000-7000 then you need another 1000 per sqm to finish off the black finish appartment. it has already become too expensive.
one must say also that up to now it has been a sellers market. they artificially blow up prices and to certain extent as the number of companies is not that great one could imagine a cartel having been formed. in secondary market i doubt that such prices can be reached.
as i said before: caution for the buyer, avoid agents, buy land, if you want appartments wait for secondary market in 2-3 years. thousands of units will be on sale in a rush mainly from anglosaxon first time investors who bought a hot potato. they will need to offload the property at any price. secondary market prices will be lower than currently developer prices. add to that that all developments look better on visualizations. in real life may not look as great. do yourself a favour and visit recent developemnts in warsaw especially. they look much worse than the visualisations, not much different than the communistic blocs, just newer.
the only projects that are pricey but worth any penny of your money are: in lodz the uscheiblera, in warsaw the zlota44, in krakow one brewery becoming lofts, dont remember the name and in poznan similar project of a distillery, have to find it. any of this projects you can rent or sell without difficulty - they are extraordinary. its worth checking out the pricey zlota44 project, you wouldnt find buildings like that easily. continue, farming land category A for farming purposes and small hotels in proven touristic places. the rest if you did not do anything up to begining of 2006, now forget it. you missed the train. just check out how much prices went up from 2004 to 2007!!! you will buy expensive, you would have to compete with smarter investors who bought earlier than you and eventually you would have to find an escape route writing down a loss.
PS1. developers do not pay commission to agents??? dont think so!!! if you check the polish civil code, expressly it says that agents in principle can claim commission from both parties. and that is exactly what they do. all. but if you ask, small and big, none of them says so. so, typical sales blah blah again...
PS2. i do not assume anything about you. i only see that you are in defence of a professional agent and it does sound strange. let him defend himself (under the name of michael or dmmm or whatever he chooses).
ill answer your points 1 at a time so we dont all lose the plot
I didnt research the rednet report as after the 1st 2 it didnt seem time wise - i will now look further
Im not saying your wrong in your opinions that the Poland market is heading for bad times ,im just saying i disagree - were all entitled to an opinion but the tone of your posts seem to be uncalled for
i,ll have a read of the report thanks for the link it will be interesting reading & i,ll post my thoughts ASAP
I always do my research & that goes for researching Michael C ,i would suggest you have a look at hes track record & make your own opinion before slating the man off
With regards to your implications that Dmmmm is the same person as MC - your incorrect .My intials are Dmm however these are often taken as usernames on many registrations & so i dont have to remember several differnt usernames i stick to 1 that no one else seems to use
Im glad to see you belive Lodz to be a good bet for bet & surely as others have pointed out if land prices are a good investment proerty will follow thereafter
I prefer to look at mid - long term investmen returns & not a 1 month blip but thats another differance of opinion between ourselves
I agree with kneehawk that your negitivity is unhelpful .if you put your case but left it to the facts & toned your posts down you would give yourself & your opinions more credibilty
I dont understand why you look at this forum ifyour so negative towards Polands Real Estate investnts!!
How can you say Poles dont rent from foreigners . They surely do what people do over in the UK - they look at a property ,if they like it they say how much ,yes ok i like the price ill rent - not who owns it ,oh a foreigner i wont rent it then!!
As you noted i work in the construction Industry as a Contracts Manager ,i would say 60% of the guys on my site are eastern European & their quality is no problem to me at all. I manage sites from 2m - 10m not small extension
Yeild v capital growth - to keep things simple when yeild goes down capital growth goes up ,i can live with that when im in for the mid- long term
In summary Donomar i dont agree with your opinions on many thoughts but only time will tell whos was right ,but if you amend your tone we can continue to exchange differnet opinions .
Remember - if everyones thinking the same then someone aint thinking
donomar, i have given you credit where there obviously there is not credit due ,so i will go back to basics,as that is maybe all you can understand.using your criteria of a property valued at 490000subtract a 10% deposit which is exactly a deal i am working on at the moment, and that leaves you with 441000.If you continue to calculate ,the interest only mortgage bases on swiss francs will cost you 1378zl per month.Where the **** did you get 3600 from. i have already told you to use swiss francs .Zl is to expensive.
you seem so preocuppied with the top end ,whatever happenend with the entry and middle market ? The rest of your comments rest at best on the ridiculous so i cannot be bothered to answer .but i will ask this question yet again ,since you continue to avoid it .What is your experiance of the polish property market?
Sorry, i forgot to start.The merit of any type of this investment lies in capitol appreciation, and NOT yield (see matey boys first stupid comment)
you start getting nervous and be unnice. you must abide by basic rules of politeness otherwise you should stop from the forum and definitely stop addressing my posts!
swiss franc morgage interest only!!! wow, what a fcuk up strategy!!! even if you get a 6% value increase per year the cost of money taking into account all expenses would annul any profit!
on the other hand, polish media is increasingly talking about a bubble, and serious analysts say that stabilizition, or slight fall lies in the horizon... not so much capital appreciation in the future. how much more can you go above and over 6500-7000 plz per square meter in lodz? in reality not much...
there was a chance in lodz to make money a year an a half ago when starting prices were 3500 pzl and secondary market in tenement houses from 2500 pzl. if you missed that chance the bird flew away. do you want to be the last one to buy at most expensive? the agents do have an interest in telling that prices would go up infinitely, yet nothing can be further from the truth. you would have to compete with people who bought at the right time at the right place and you stand no chance!
for example in lodz, in the uscheiblera project prices started at 3500 plz per sqm! and keep in mind that this is the top top end of the residential market. how can you compete with the people who bought there with your entry level crapy appartment at 6000-7000? you cannot! you will get the keys to your appartment at the same time with the scheibler owners and guess where prospective tenants will choose to stay....
if you want to go back to basics, and if you are "specialist" in entry/middle level, do you have the faintest idea what is the entry/middle salary in lodz, poland??? well, its about 200-300 euros per month. these are the potential tenants or buyer of your entry class half a million zloty appartment! you need to better inform yourself about real life situation there. and of course any customers you may possibly have whose life savings are endangered by foolish advice.
again an opportunity to warn potential investors: be wary of sales agents presenting a rosy picture. they take commisions from anybody involved, seller, buyer, bank. they will create a certain solution, they will suggest financing (for which they also take commission from the bank), they will spin your mind with imminent reaches, but truth it is only them whom make a safe catch - THEIR best investment is YOU and your willingness to believe and SIGN. if you want to do something, buy land, buy top end, avoid agents and play safe in a foreign country. i said it before. somebody has to protect the innocent from the hawks...
you ask repeatedly what is my experience. funny question in fact....
i thought of ignoring a patronising question like that, and surely i would not like to give my identity away but you did get me into giving you a hint: according to data from the ministry and the agency for foreign investmnets in poland (do you access to?), i rank among the top 40 single individual foreigner investors in real estate in poland. if you know the market as well as you claim, you can risk a guess about who i am...
let me quess what is your experience: ...ahhh...ahhhh...well you are a sales agent, right? or you are covered under the pretence of investor who "helps" other investors, right? trust me, i have come accross many of this type, especially in the last 24 months, most of uk origin... i feel sory for the poor souls they are "advising"... 2 hours internet search makes their "advice" redundant! no local polish person or experienced investor would ever use their services...
You have set the tone of this debate and not me.It is you who without evidence have accused others of misrepresentation and labelled Irish investors as ignorent so i am merely following the path that you laid down.
You are confusing yield with capitol appreciation.I am using Swiss Francs because that is the cheapest way to finance property in Poland at the moment for the average investor.
If capitol appreciation in Poland was at 6% per annum as you state,then i would not invest in Poland.
I have already agreed that the Schleibera development is the best in Lodz and yes investors who got in quickly got themselves an excellent deal,but as i said before the emergence of interest only mortgages only recently will reduce the deficit and also once those units bought for investment purposes are let and demand drives the rental up there will be new tennants coming into the market all the time and they all cannot live at Schleibera.
If you are among the top 40 single individual investors in Polish property,then without doubt i am the only one true King of England.
the director of rednet in an interview today, announcing the definite turn of the company to the overseas property, she says that the end of significant price growth in the appartments prices has come to poland. she cannot see any prospect for price growth in appartment prices, she tells investors to look hard at polish market...
mind you, this is the largest sales agent in real estate in poland - by far. when they make such statement (which in fact is against their interests) things are really serious.
now if there is one single soul that wants to believe the likes above who tell you that you will double your money, then nobody can protect such a fool from his destiny.
you are indeed a king in the making, the king of deception...
swiss franc is the most popular way of poles getting a loan. yet they are exposed to the danger of currency risks. the central banks are advising the banks to limit loans on swiss franc, banks dont care as long as they make customers. what do you know about all that? nothing, why should you care, you are a sales agent, you are only after your commission...
you have avoided answering many of my questions. one on which i insist: if one buys to live in, then no problem with that. but if one buys a very basic appartment in lodz at the price of 6000-7000, how that investor would compete in the market with the smarter investor who bought much better quality at significantly lower price? real estate is a market - you compete with others and as in any market you cannot win if you buy worse quality at more expensive price....
apart from individual irish investors, shrewed individuals, some of whom i know personally, the big mass of irish have been acting foolishly in the overseas investments in europe. they are the one who bought in bulgaria at astronomical prices, they are the ones who buy without even visiting the actual site, they are the ones who in poor judgemnt used the capital release from their own private homes to finance dubious purchases, they are the ones take their experience in their local market and apply it everywhere... irrespective of macro/micro economics of the place they invest. that is the sad truth... and sad is how some irish sales agents are ripping off their countrymen.
am i talking to a ghost? michael c, dmmm and kneehawk, all are based in london!!!! they all support eachother!!!! they all are interested in property in a professional manner!!! they all got registered at close dates!!!
anyway, even if it is so, i am taking comfort in the fact that anglosaxons may have look in the site, read the posts above and think harder before they trust their countryman who suggests to them "investement" in polish appartments...
if in spite of that they go forward, at least they have been warned. i would have no problem in buying their property in the next 3-4 years significantly lower than the price they paid...
