Lech Wałęsa threatens to leave Poland

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7972907.stm

he's spent a lot of time in texas lately... always welcome here! ;-)

F. out old moron. The faster, the better.

to leave Poland?

if he leave Poland to immigrate to Serbia he would found that modern day Serbia isn`t better then Poland. Puppet governmants and Slavic traitors all arround


dobri brate Grzegorz, why is he moron for you? What is his stance on NATO occupation of Serbia and Poland`s Kosovo recognition?

good commie you are. he's directly responsible for freedom of poland. you should show more respect and gratitude, a-hole.

drama queen PF style...
lol

ha ha ah hahah ha ah hha ha....


hahahahahahahahah

you don't say? .i.

It's so funny. They apparently actually have authentic communist era documents about plans to drive a wedge between Wałęsa and the rest of the S movement by making them think he was an informant .... and it worked splendidly. And those who fell for it have so much invested in that idea psychologically that they can't let go of it.

Basically my opinion of the roundtable results is that the process wasn't perfect but, given the state of knowledge at the time, was about as good as it could be and most importantly provided the country as a whole with a relatively soft landing.

Those who talk a good game now (with the advantage of hindsight) about how tough they should have been with the communists and "traitors" (the majority of the population to some degree or other) are fools.

Yeah, the whole privatization process was handled horribly but that wasn't necessarily the fault of the communists but of the traditional Polish defeatist attitude, according to which nothing in Poland at the time was worth preserving or safeguarding (and naive beliefs about western industrial concerns wanting to 'help' Poland).

(And yeah, Wałęsa was an awful president but that was the fault of the Polish electorate in beeling foolish enough to elect him - democracies pretty much get what they deserve).

Agent "Bolek" should move to Hamerica where they think he is a hero.


Boy, was it a soft landing for the communists. They are firmly in charge of the courts and industry, all the other things are fluff. The only non-left government of Olszewski was sabotaged by Wałęsa and company in 1993.

Have you seen any convictions for communist crimes since the "fall" of communism?

The idea of revenge against the communists and a soft landing for everyone else was not a real possibility. You might not like it, but that's the way it goes.

I'm in favor of prosecuting specific people for specific acts that can be proven. I'm not so interested in vague or collective convictions.

Who is talking of revenge? We are talking about justice.


What? There are people walking around in my neibourhood who were sentencing Polish patriots to death during the Salinist years!


This hasn't happened yet because ex-communists are firmly in charge after their "fall."

The problem with Lech Walesa is that he was always aiming to be a Legend. And legends do not have any flaws.
Walesa was clearly an agent of sort. Maybe an agent is not a good word. He was more of a colaborator, who cooperated with communists to actually end the era of communism in Poland. Some may not like this idea, but in my opinion it was much better than another 'uprising' or 'revolution', as we can imagine how many lives those would consume.

Walesa is a traitor for two categories of people, but for different reasons:

- union workers, as what Walesa achieved was NOT what they were demanding. Please try reading the demands of Solidarnosc. They wanted to go deeper into socialims. And the communists introduced a complete free market with a single bill that has no precedence. It said that all economic activities are allowed, reserving the need for concessions in only 6 (or 12, don't remember) areas connected with national security and government monopolies. Poland was given an incredible opportunity and the rate of economic growth was never seen later again. Empty shelves in shops were full.

Of course later on more and more socialsm was reintroduced until today, mainly by 'liberal' governments to protect their influence on business. But it's still better than communism.

- Some of the right wing parties, as they were not invited for talks with communists. It was the Minister of Internal Affairs who was inviting people for talks. And the right wing patriots were not invited. Thats why they treat the round table talks as treason, and see it as talks between communist officials with their agents and socialists.

Was that why you moved to America? Or was it just because you wanted toilet paper and didn't care a jot about Poland?


Isn't it strange how Poland can find so much energy and time to chase the Jewish Poles who were involved in Stalinist crimes but can't find any time or energy to to chase the Catholic Poles who were involved in Stalinist crimes.

I have met many Poles who do not think so.
Wałęsa has become the poster boy for the solidarity movement in the "west".
Personally, I don't care so long as Poland is free.
I think as far as commie hunting, there are probably bigger fish to fry.


This is indeed interesting, Poland came down hard on the Nazis but not so hard on the Soviet communists.
I know that your point was about Jews and I am adding to it in a slightly different direction (I know nothing about Jews).

I think for many there is still a deep fear, that people could "disappear" if they talk out against communism, even to this day, like back in the, not so good old days.

My point wasn't about Jews. My point was that Poland only seems to want to chase Jews, never Catholics who committed the same crime. Look at the fuss over Wolińska-Brus: Poland kept hounding her until her death. But the judge in the same case for which Wolińska-Brus was being chased got away with her crimes by simply refusing to turn up at court. Look at Morel: all that noise over extraditing him but when Poland had it's hands on one of Morel's peers (and one charged with worse crimes), they stopped his trial because he wasn't feeling very well!

That is what I understood but I do not know anything about Jews, so I went kind of off your point.
The only time I hear or see anything about Jews is people celebrating Jewish culture in Krakow and a lot of Jew hating nonsense on here.

ignorant arses, one and all. and they laugh at americans not knowing where certain countries are while these poles don't even know or understand their own history.. that's just sad. :(


sweet burn. she's pretty mouthy, ain't she.. lol

I was told recently that if I didn't watch my mouth, 1Jola would come and visit me in person. I'm still speaking the same way but am also still waiting for that personal visit.

Just as I'm still waiting for the police to come and arrest me after Sokrates supposedly reported me for the serious crime of reminding people that Poland ran pre-WWII and post-WWII concentration camps.

Don't worry, he never keep his word :)


Don't be naive. You write like you would never heard him speaking.

dont says it nonsense until you really know them, they are disliked by many for many reasons but all the sympathy they make for clouds many people to truths..... Poles have there reasons as do others

Here you have agent Bolek aka Lech Wałęsa in court. The President of "Lech Wałęsa Institute", whatever that is, physically assaults a cameraman out of the blue. The court and the police do not react, worse, the policewoman present refuses to identify herself and is supported in this decission by her supperiors.

The moral of this story is that you can committ a crime in court witnessed by a judge and the police with impunity in free Poland if you're a Wałęsa fan.

The other moral of this story might be that one can abandon one's homeland and flee to another country, join the armed forces of that new country and stand ready to fight against one's homeland. And then return to one's homeland and start to badmouth the man who led the fight for freedom in the land one abandoned.

Lech might have cooperated with the secret police of Poland, although he almost certainly didn't. However 1Jola joined the armed forces of a foreign power and stood ready to fight against Poland if ordered to do so. When it comes to betraying Poland, he's the expert.

He almost certainly did. Unless you strongly want to believe he didn't. He did quite a lot of things many Poles detest him for. And if someone asks my opinion, then go Wałęsa, go, and don't return. But he won't. :(

right. Maybe he even signed some papers to cooperate (thousands of peoples did) with communists but he still did his job right and I don't believe he ever caused any trouble to anyone.

he did cause trouble to poeple - back then people would lose jobs in Gdańsk because of he talked about them to communist secret police and some would have to move from Gdańsk.

then he caused more trouble as a president to the whole of the nation

PRL in 1945-1989 was never Poland, it just took the name of it. THerefor acusing Poles for Vistula action or other international dealings PRL did is nonsense to me and many Poles today.

You confuse some things. 'Poland' is a geographical land which is/was occupied by different states like below.

Kingdom of Poland, I RP, II RP, III RP, Third Reich or PRL. (among others)


Those who bear responsibility for Vistula action are those individuals who organized it. Nationality is not important.

You forgot General Government XD

Walesa spoke at congress of Libertas party in Italy. Few days (?) after he spoke at congress of EPP in Poland. It is lack of political consequence indeed, however I never claimed that Walesa has any sense. Still this is funny how Polish establishment which usually glorify him so much started to mock him during the first opportunity when he did something that they dislike. As long as he is doing what they want, he is a legend. Otherwise just stupid ignorant.

If you read Polish this is the source: