JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND

You don't get it, do you?

Oh, I do.

He says, and legally so, the same things while living in the US where he is protected by the First Amendment. In Germany he would rot in jail for what he can freely say in the US.

Now, got it?

You didn't get it... :)
That idiot was well aware of the fact that he was breaking German law (and BTW, similar laws can be found in Austria, Poland and other European countries). He did it anyway and had to face the consequences. This has nothing to do with free speech as you imply. If the First Amendment allows an American Nazi Party, the NSDAP/AO or KKK, then that's the problem and shame of the USA - not Germanys'.

This has everything to do with free speech. He was arrested for what he said and wrote.

Of course he was stupid to go public in the country where there is no freedom of speech, and that lack of freedom is my point - not whether he is stupid or not, whether he is even correct in his scientific assessments, or even whether his assessments are indeed scientific. So you may as well give up the tactics of distraction.

The fact remains - there is no freedom of speech in Germany. Even the the US Dept. of State was critical of Germany for that. In a country where freedom of speech prevails he would have been debated and proven wrong, or right. In Germany he was being destroyed in the majesty of the German law.

z_darius

The USA is not Germany, the USA is not Europe, and don't tell me that you are free to voice your opinion about everything in the US. The German law that prohibits the use of Nazi emblems, the printing of "Mein Kampf" or the denial of the Holocaust is there for a (historical) reason. If someone decides to break a law, then he/she has to face the consequences. Be it in Germany or the USA.


That's not a fact, that's pure fiction and nonsense. Have you ever been to Germany?

Yes. But it is in German, not in the US, where you cannot question historic dogmas. So again, there is no freedom of speech in Germany, and it's not just my opinion.


So those jailed in Germany and Austria were not really jailed?


More times than I can count.

They broke a law and were punished accordingly. What's so difficult to understand? Travel to Cuba is severely restricted for American citizens for example. Does this mean that there is no personal freedom in the USA? Of course not.


Who else has this opinion? Some Holocaust deniers perhaps? :)


And? Have you ever been oppressed or felt that you were restricted in your freedom of speech?

Yes. The law that limits their denies them freedom of speech.


US Department of State. Not sure if they are so called "deniers" (what an idiotic term).


I chose not to test waters in that regards.

I am not a holocaust denier - but what about - a holocaust sceptic or a holocaust investigator. As amateruish as they come.

I have a healthy scepticism when governments ban/incarcerate/fine people from questioning/denying/belitteling whatever they write or speak about.

If I said the earth was flat, or that the moonlanding never happened, people would just laugh at me or shake their heads. There would be no need for socalled hatelaws or hatespeech to prevent what we refer to as "holocaust-denial". I mean, if they can do this, then what else can they ban people from saying? Are we going to jail, loose our jobs or be heavily fined for saying or questioning things that society has deemed "the truth"? I know there are things that should be banned and fined like child pornography, animal cruelty etc. But a historical event, or a fact that is approved in our history books? I read stories every month about findings of old artifacts that will "change our views", or "make us rewrite the history books". Are we going to ban, fine or jail these archeologists or doctors who discover that what we have believed in all this time may not be accurate? Even if it hurts some people or may cause trauma to a whole community?

Yes, I believe the jews were persecuted for being jewish. Yes I believe they were forced into concentration camps. Yes I believe hundreds of thousands of them died, either by firing squads, hanging, hunger, tyfus, malnutrition, beatings and all the horrors war and persecution provides. I do not deny that the jewish people were targeted, persecuted and paid a high price for their religion and ethnicity.

But i have - a scepticism - for the gassing part. I have read both sides of the story and although the eyewitness accounts and books/movies that have been published in the last 40-50 years, they have yet to produce a real photograph, a real paper stating the names of the people that were gassed or time and date of when it happened. They have yet to produce a real gaschamber that qualifies in size and industrial quality to the number of victims they estimated were gassed. There is no paper, no document, no real hard evidence of actual gassing. There was even a larger amount of money on the table if somebody could prove any of the things I mentioned above. That money has yet to be claimed. I know this is a very emotional topic and I have no doctorate or professional background to discuss this topic. But if that was the case, then we couldn't really discuss anything. This forum would be dead. This is my opinion and my own reflection from the books, documents, movies and documentaries I have seen over the last 10-15 years.

People are questioning the 9/11, the kennedy assassination, the moon landing, how the pyramids were built, how the government put fluoride in our drinking water to control us, how vaccines are bad for us. We have the Katyn murders which were blamed on the Germans, we have the concentration camps in Serbia during the war in the 90's which were exposed as fakes, what was the real reason for the civil war in America, why did Martin Luther King get assassinated? These are all exciting and interesting things to read and discuss. But noone goes to jail for it! So, why is the holocaust, and the "fact", that 6 million jews were gassed a fact carved into the stone of eternity?

We know that the plaques at the Auscwitz camp have been revised three times, now standing at 1.1 million from the original 4 million. If they can do this, why can't something else be not true or excessive? We now know that the propaganda of lampshades and human soap is untrue. We know that no jews were gassed in the concentration camps on German territory. We have read many stories about witnesses that have been caught in lying about their experiences. If all these things were fake, propaganda and the "victors" tale, then why is not allowed to even question the gaschambers?

Again, if anybody here can post a photo, a written order, a list of names and the reason of death described as gassing I will accept this as the truth and get on with my other "conspiracy" theories. But as long as this has yet to be produced, there has to be freedom to talk, discuss, debate and investigate. What better proof could you get than let a crack team of scientists go into Auschwitz and make a modern, high-tech evaluation of the whole place? But this has never happened. Why?

So, don't you all get your anger flared up. I know it's not the happiest of topics, but it deserves to be out in the open, not clubbed down some poor amateurs head in a kangaroo court where as I read in the Zundel trial, the judge said; and I QUOTE; "THE TRUTH IS NO DEFENCE". Ok then.....

Why am I even discussing this? I don't know, human curiosity I guess. Will I gain anything if anything changes historically from this debate? I don't know. I have family that fought on the German, Polish, Norwegian and even the Russian side. And I have family that were killed by all of them. Just in case anybody here want's to label me anti-semite or nazi. I am neither.

Dariusz

-Who has actually been to Auschwitz three times and recognizes it was NOT DISNEYLAND.

z_darius

You're ignoring all examples I gave you regarding the USA. Is that for a reason? What about those people who wore anti-Bush T-shirts and got arrested? Is there no freedom of speech in the USA? You see how silly this is?

firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=14041


Have a link?


I agree with you up to a certain extent. Of course we need to watch out that our governments are not cutting away on our rights, but on the other hand there have to be certain restrictions. If the KKK is burning a cross in front of the house of a black family and is threatening the people, is that freedom of speech that must be protected under all circumstances or has this to be considered a punishable hate-crime? For me it's the latter.

This isnt about freedom of speech it's about human rights.

I have very recently (within the past few days) changed my opinion about this, I used to believe that any opinion may be published. The reason I changed my mind was that I realised that the people who espouse illiberal views use the very freedom that liberals have struggled to provide to get into a position where they can then close down the freedoms that put them into that position of power.

Of course the big problem is that who decides what an untouchable dogma is.

I still haven’t worked it out but it is too easy to just give people cart blanche to promote what they want.

Of course there is. I just said this as an example that if it turns out to be that when the numbers are higher for certain groups, you will get the same discussions all over again.


It's always a problem: do you condone an opinion that stands for the limitation of other opinions? You want to be tolerant and accept the fact that there are ppl who think like that. Yet you are being attacked by those and the system they would like to see happening, will put you in jail or worse. Yet, there is freedom of speech. I think you should draw the line where it is just words and where the words are actually turned into deeds.

Barney

You have put exactly into words what I was trying to say :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

MareGaea
We were talking about this (and other things) in the bar on Sunday but mostly about Liverpool vs Man Utd.

B (Loves Pub Culture)

Barney

Used to do that too with my friends...Indeed about topics like this. And football, yes of course, but only the Dutch teams of course although most of my friends have a strange affection for Ajax, while I'm of course in favour of Feyenoord. I always laugh at them when Ajax loses, and they get really angry when I do that. And they always laugh at me when Feyenoord loses and I get also really angry at them for that.

>^..^<

M-G (Ajax - Feyenoord is a big issue in NL)

I love how the topic got sidetracked from young Jews commiting hideous acts of racist violence against Poles to holocaust denial, way to turn the table.

And all from a guy who approves of assaults on Poles because they "get what they deserve".

Eh Maregea?:)))

Do Israeli youth should ride to the extermination of the Jews in Poland? - Not necessarily . Sending a 17 -year-olds there 's too big a shock - publicist says the newspaper " HAREC " .

Jews and Poles in the March of the Living at Auschwitz

Starting this year, with each trip the youth of Israel to be flying Polish psychologist . Recommended that a special committee of the Ministry of Education , who said that young viewers nightmare experiencing the trauma of the concentration camps ....

Excerpt in English.

"Visits to concentration camps cause trauma that results in... violence against the Poles ... ordering strippers to hotel rooms".

Poor traumatised Jews! After you see a gas chamber you leave a broken man untill a nice stripper and beating up a Pole sets things right!

pps.info.pl/1.htm

Excerpts in English.

"Young Israelis are being thought that Germans and Poles are both guilty of the Holocaust"


Another interesting link that describes how extreme is Israeli Jewish racism targetted at Poles.

If you assault others, you can expect to be assaulted back. And if you make a habit of this, you get indeed what you deserved when you are on the receiving end of an assault. Don't rise as if you were a representative of all Poles. Most Poles are decent ppl, not all are idiots like you.

And besides, there is a link anyway: I think the problem of Jewish youths is grossly exhaggerated. Of course, there will be a group that has done *hideous acts of racism against Poles* Well, what do they do? They trashed a few hotelrooms. So what? This happens everywhere and is not committed by Jewish teens alone. Take rockstars for example, they trash hotelrooms regularily and yet everybody thinks it's cool. Because they are rockstars. Teens will be teens and the vast majority behaves themselves. It's just crap to state that this is a *hideous act of racism*. Indeed, like Seanus said: some anti-semite posting bullcrap.

I read the article again, and actually, this is the ONLY thing I could find in it that gave some sort of proof of misbehaviour:


I don't see any "racist" action mentioned in the article, and the above quoted behaviour is just standard behaviour for any teen away from home for the first time. As you added of course the extra dimension of the origin of these teens, the link is easily made. Do Polish teens behave so much different when they are abroad? Do Dutch, British, German, Spanish, Italian teens behave different? Some will, some won't, but they are young and they are in a group. They will drink, they will trash some stuff. We all have done it when we were young and all of those who are complaining about this have apparently forgotten that they were young themselves too.

At least the Israelian government has the decency to restructure the programme of information, set up a scheme of tasks for the kids to do and the like. Is the Polish government starting a scheme to re-educate those drunk individuals who roam Dublin's streets every weekend, vomiting in doorsteps, screaming and shouting and throwing garbage cans around? :)

Edit: an English link would be nice.

>^..^<

M-G (they're just kids - don't make such a big fuss of it)

Really? So you dont think that claiming Poles were as a nation and Poland as a country actively participating in holocaust is racist?


Really?
"W moim przekonaniu prawdziwy problem nie tkwi w braku elementarnej kultury młodych Izraelczyków i ich (bezprawnie) uzbrojonych, nadużywających przemocy opiekunów. Nie tkwi także w ostentacyjnej pogardzie okazywanej polskim gospodarzom. Prawdziwy problem leży w konsekwentnej i z całą pewnością nie przypadkowej polityce władz Państwa Izrael wobec Polski. Jak zauważył w "Przekroju"

Thats a Jewish professor talking from the link in my above post, allow me to translate.

I'm my belief the real problem lies not in the lack of basic culture of young Israelis, not in their illegally armed and abusing violence caretakers, its also not in the contempt they show to their Polish hosts, the real problem lies in a deliberate policy of Israel towards Poland."

Profesor Moshe Zimmerman.

A Jewish professor just told us that Israel is raising its youth to be racist towards Poles, care to adress that? I can provide another 100+ different links with examples of violent assaults, theft, attempted rape, smearing racist epithets with feces on the walls of hotels, all because we are Polish.

So care to adress this as you claim marginal and normal behaviour of youths abroad? I never assaulted anyone in UK or US, i also never stole and never smeared walls with sh*t, none of my friends did either, or maybe its the norm of young people in your country?

An Italian assaulted on the streets of Kraków (Jews thought he was a Pole).

Four adult "body guards" massacred him for no reason other then they were in Poland and so assumed he was a Pole.


This Jewish professor and our embassy dont think so, let me show you other people who dont think so.

polishdailynews.com/pub.php?mode=archiwum&id=4507
On young Israeli Jews in Polish hotels.

"They say youth has its priveliges but does defecating into your bed before going to breakfast count among them?"

"Historian from the Hebrew University says they treat Poles as subhuman."


Sorry you'll have to do with Polish ones since its a Polish-Israeli issue and i cant speak yiddysh, you can ask any Pole on these forums (or even Seanus) to confirm the translation, but the behaviour of young Jews is in accordance with yours, when you said that Poles deserve the racist treatment by Jews:))

I was referring to the original article, as I cannot read Polish.


I didn't say that it's the norm. I never did anything bad either. But you will always have a group of ppl who cannot behave when they're drunk. You really think that Israël promotes this behaviour? Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. I guess it all depends on the way some individuals are raised. Can't read the link as it's blocked here at work, but I will once I'm at home. So right now I cannot comment on it.


It's racist indeed, but I don't find this claim anywhere back in the article that I read. And I don't believe EVERY Jewish teen does this. You make it look like it does.

Let me ask you a question in return: why do you and others always take the word and opinion of one single individual as true, or more true than that what the vast majority is saying? Just because they share the same view as you? If 99 ppl say "A", for example, and 1 says "B" is that one person right and all the others are all wrong? But that's a tendency I see more often: one person claims something that is falsified by dozen others, yet it's presented as only truth. It's like saying that the village idiot is actually right when he claims he is the son of God. Only if the number of ppl saying the same as that one individual, it might be true, but for the time being, we will just take note of a differing opinion and go by the generally accepted truth. The real truth probably will lie somewhere in the middle and we will never know it, perhaps, but until we do, we go by the majority.

>^..^<

M-G (work system is down)

We're talking about a norm here, most trips from Israel are like that.


A Jewish authority figure thinks so, Haaretz shows comics that portray Poles as Nazis, Jewish ministry of education gives out leaflets that claim Poles as a nation were active in Holocaust, i dont have to think, i know Israel promotes this behaviour, our embassy knows that and there's enough proof in the links i provided (i can point to relevant parts) or post others if you're dissatisfied with those.

Israeli goverment and opinion making circles such are racist towards Poles and Poland and are raising their youth to be actively racist against Poland.


owp.com.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=65&Itemid=11

Be my guest.

"Będziemy ich nienawidzić za udział w zbrodniach" part, a pamphlet given out by the authority of the Israeli ministy of education starts with words "We will hate them for their part in the crimes" (on Poles).


In the articles i have given there's four different individuals and further 9 quoted, i can also forward you to discussion boards and further articles where citizens and the press comments on Israeli Jews behavior.

Its is a massive occurence on an undeniably racist basis, Poles say so and even some Jews do, unless you're willing to write off all of these accounts as anti-semitic lies then sorry but thats not one person saying so and thats not some random kids goofing off.


You have received several links, each describing separate acts by separate witnesses, most of them Poles (in the last link there's also the Italian beaten up) and commented upon by a Jew, add to that the official racist pamphlets approved by Israeli goverment and their portrayal of us in their media and thats not a case of one guy throwing a bomb.


For the time being Israeli goverment and its youth are racist.


In the middle of a road together with a Polish citizen they handcuffed and kicked for no reason, or together with the Polish woman who was violently searched by Israeli bodyguards just for walking by.

przekroj.pl/wydarzenia_kraj_artykul,1560.html

Sorry but there is no cop out here, Israeli youth is anti-Polish because Israel at large is anti-Polish and introducing anti-Polish racist elements into their education.

Also Maregea i noticed something interesting, when discussing Poles you're ready to instantly write them off as racist, anti-semitic or whatever else suits you but when faced with overwhelming proof of Jewish racism towards Poles all you can come up with is "they're kids" or "i bet the guy was lying".

Double standards?:)

this is a lovely song. They need to sit around a fire and sing this and chill out.

They cannot blame the Poles like they blame Palestinians for stealing and not helping their cause. Poland was good enough to preserve their Jewish quarter, Kazimierz.

In all fairness, I believe I have read in Haaretz that Israeli Foreign Ministry is aware of these past incidents and is doing something about it. I haven't read any horror stories from this past March of the Living. I think both countries are trying to have the youth meet each other to see for themselves that they should be free free of past prejudices. I hope it works.

An urelated story. Last year, while crossing into Israel on foot, at the final passport check, an Israeli security man looked at my Polish passport and said: I can't let you in. Seeing my puzzled and slightly worried face, he smiled and said: it's full, too many Jews. If only we all had this light approach.

Yes they can, they portray us as pigs in their comics, they claim we built German death camps, just take a look at Maregeas replies, he's a f*cking hypocrite if there ever was one.


Of course it aware, after all it was the official government instruction that preached hate against Poles and it was given out for at least a year.


There was the annual "smear the Polish hotel in sh*t" contest followed by spitting on people from hotel windows and spraying "NAZIS" in hotel rooms but oddly enough no Pole was beaten up or had a gun to his head.


I know it wont, you cant just erase decades of racist education, these people see us as subhumans, swine and nazis, those kids think every Pole is out to get them.

Thank God you are always your own little disgusting self.

And as far as me being racist towards Poles: that's only personally to you as you are a little man with little thoughts and little imagination. What good would it do if I present proof of the opposite when it's constantly being dismissed as Zionist propaganda? Yes - that's how it's approached. Pardon me, but since I only react to the way ppl are, I might as well put question marks with your proof.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

By 'cannot' I meant shouldn't, or ought not to as it's a bit stronger. Żegota and the good deeds alluded to by Szpilman and others obviously counted for nothing. They have to see it from the point of view of Poles. There is no escaping the fact that it was VERY difficult to shield Jews from the SS. They were taking a risk by even trying.

People will never fulyl understand history if they can't follow the verstehen approach.

So you're not going to reply to any of the points made about how racist the Israeli kids are?:)

Are all the people in the articles lying? Is the Jewish professor and everyone quoted a lying anti-semite?:)))

...yeah i thought so :)


But its so much easier to claim that the Polish nation actively helped SS!


By all means! If you have proof that what i posted is just lies and slander and that young Jews from Israel are not racist towards Poles do so!

Care to explain why the Polish citizens in their mass, Polish media and their Jewish counterparts would be lying about all this though?

Just as easy as claiming that all Jewish kids are racist anti-Polish swines. Because that's exactly what you do - the same, but only the other way around.

Btw, to answer your question: I do not condone any racism by any group. But this starts again, as usual in your posts, to look like finger-pointing.

>^..^<

M-G (dissenting voices are always appreciated - however, it's always the context; try and figure that out)

Most Jewish Israeli kids that come to Poland are anti-Polish racist bastards, i dont claim that i've proven that repeatedly over the last few posts with sources, i've also proven that Israeli government is involved in racist education thats meant to show Poles in a horrible light.

Are my sources not credible? Do you argue that said assaults did not happen or that such racist remarks about Poles in popular Israeli media and official education do not exist?:)


So i take it that you condemn Israeli youths racist behaviour towards Polish citizens when in Poland?

Sokrates

Just read my exiting remark and think about it - you may find the answer to your last question.

Let me ask you a question: if I put articles in here about drunken Poles that roam the streets in Dublin town, are all the Poles drunken b*stards then? Is the Polish government condoning drunken b*stards and actively encouraging drunkeness abroad? No, probably not. Don't claim that I say that all Poles are racists. I don't. Just idiots like you are. Don't generalize remarks made directly at you.

Another question: do you condone racism in any form or shape?

I think that it's pretty clear that when I say that I don't condone racism by any group or ppl, that I include Israeli youth in this and the act of not condoning usually implies a condemnation of excesses. I just don't believe the way you put it here: that all Jewish kids are like that. But that is maybe just a symptom of the handicap you're having.

>^..^<

M-G (waiting)

Absolutely not but you do not reply to a question with another question, do you or do you not condemn the racist behaviour of Israeli youth, i can answer your question directly can you do the same?

Civil courage buddy, when you say something mean it or shut up.


No idea never stayed in Dublin but if the articles indicate that and are reliable then yeah, probably most Poles in Dublin will be drunken bastards.


If you can provide solid proof like i provided solid proof that Israeli goverment condones and supports racism against Poles then yeah.

Now lets get to the question, do you condemn the racist acts of Israeli Youth in Poland?:)


Never in any of my posts have i claimed that all were like that, find such a quote and i'm officially going to kiss your ass in apology.

I said, i have proven it with reliable sources and i stand by the claim that a very significant group of Israeli kids coming to Poland is racist, that significant elements of Israeli goverment are racist and that Israel educates its youth to be racist against Poles, think of them as nazi collaborators, murderers and inferiors.

Since you apparently don't understand that my previous answer to this question contains a positive, I will put it again:

Yes I do condemn any forms of racism, this includes any racist acts from Jewish youths.

The example of drunken Poles in the streets of Dublin town was a hypothetical one, a comparing metaphore. In case you didn't understand :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)