The Emperor is naked. Lech Walesa, fool or hero ?

This Lech Wałęsa character intrigues me, as does his popularity. Im aware of his place in Polish history but my understanding of it is that he was more of a figurehead for other more active and relevant people in the trade union movement. I dont mean to offend anyone, but he comes across as a very, very stupid inarticulate guy in interviews and is internationaly seen as more of an embarrassment to Poland than anything else. Having listened to the oppinions of many Poles, it would seem that most would share this oppinion of him also. Here is an article I found on the net, it seems perfectly plausable to me.

"A giant fraud orchestrated by the Polish communist regime has been committed and we've all been duped. In the end of seventies the Polish economy was falling apart and the country was on the verge of collapse. A fall of the regime was inevitable. There was not much to do to prevent it to happen. There was no money and no food.

URL + 100 words.

Not so long ago Wałęsa has pledged he will leave the country (this was on occasion of publishing a next book about him by Paweł Zyzak) - I really liked the idea as many people who posted on political forums :)

this topic has been by a post here

anyway blueenigma thanks for posting

many people from outside of Poland don't know this or that.

I guess I posted this thread as more a measure of Polish opinion regarding this character
rather than highlighting anything new to you guys. Lech Walesa intrigues me, as does the idea of him being a national hero and duping the Polish people for so long. It’s heartening to know that the younger generation question this guy’s true contribution to Poland’s past rather than perhaps idolize him like their parents might have. Are these publications about his true past and shady associations well known in Poland? I know there are books coming out about him, but will Polish people believe them? I think he would have no other option but to leave Poland if further revelations about him are in the public domain, although I wonder if he will get to keep his many awards etc. All these stories about him seem to be gathering momentum recently, Im fascinated to see where all of this will end for Mr Lech Walesa.

Both, he's a very simple man who once rose to shoulder a great challenge so he's definitely a hero but he's personally nothing more than a simple electrician who never really grasped the greater affairs of the world.

goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=1102772

Thank you Plk123, that was the article I posted but alas it was removed.


He may be simple, but whether he rose to shoulder anything at all is of grave doubt. I’ve read articles back home in Ireland about him also; same stories of lies and deceit keep surfacing. Seemingly he is promising to leave Poland if anymore controversy surfaces about his true role in the past. I find it rather odd that he isn’t pressing charges for slander if he isn’t the fraud and pretender people say he is. I ncant imagine the humiliation he must be now feeling, nor the reaction of Polish people who have considered him a hero

What doubt? He was leading "Solidarność" in times when he could well get a bullet for that, thats pretty brave by any account and anyone who undermines THAT is either an idiot or communist supporter, there should not even be a discussion about this particular fact.


Thats because apart from being pretty heroic in his time Wałęsa is also an idiot, people cant seem to be able to grasp a concept of an heroic idiot though :)


There is no controversy about his role in the past and i'd appreciate if you'd stop that communist ********, Wałęsas role as a face, symbol and a rallying banner in difficult times is indisputable, what people do bring out is that he was also a two faced prick in private life which i'm willing to believe, he's still a hero though, a stupid little man who by fate or accident found himself in the right time at the right place but he did.


I find your entire post odd stupid and out of place, are you some sort of hardline commie? There is no question about Wałęsas role during "S" movements and he's still a hero, the point is whether apart from being a hero for Poland he's privately a decent man which i very much doubt he is.

But given that most Irish, English and Scottish heroes were also murdering cvnts, thieves, pirates or tyrants i dont see a problem and neither should you, a national hero is not necceserily a good human being.

For you to consider me a communist, because I posted a thread explaining that this guy seems stupid and I have read a lot of reports questioning his true role in Polish history is silly, and immature :) Why is my entire role stupid and out of place? I posted it in 'Poland and History', I said he seems stupid (you agree) I said I am intrigued by him and I am curious as to how Poles might react if he was uncovered as a fraud. I'm not sure if you understood my original thread, but your reaction is silly and very childish. I said I didn't mean to offend anyone, and for you to be offended because I said I have read countless articles that question the man is ridiculous. My point had nothing to do with if he is privately a 'decent' man or not, did you understand anything I wrote? My point was that I have read a lot of negative press about him recently. My point was that I'm aware that there are books about him that detail he was a puppet and a fraud, and I'm fascinated by this. My point was how Polish people will react if this is true. My point was that a lot of Polish people seem to be embarrassed by him, and I'm interested in how all this will end, will he have to leave Poland as he has threatened to do, will he sue as he has threatened to do. My point was also to measure the reaction and opinions of Poles to these revelations, and although you seem confused your reaction is indeed a reaction.


That's my point THERE IS DOUBT, thus why he is threatining legal action !!!!! (although you don't seem to understand anything I asked or my motives for asking) There are a lot of people who are questioning his 'bravery' and if the allegations are true (He still hasnt pressed charges) he wasn't in any danger at all because he was set up as a puppet. I am neither an idiot or a communist supporter :) For you to suggest I am because of this post is very very immature.

You did read the article I posted didn't you? You do realise that my original post was based on one of many articles I have read about this man?

goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=1102772


So for someone to be interested in recent alliigations and publications that seem to offer a differrent perspective on someones role in history is communist ? :)))) Um no, THERE IS CONTROVERSY regarding his role in the past, THAT IS WHY I POSTED THIS THREAD TO UNDERSTAND WHAT PEOPLE THINK OF THIS CONTROVERSY. That is why he is threatening to leave Poland. This is why people are bringing out books and research into his true role in history, why, how, and who was behind the scenes. Nobody here or I is discussing his private life. The whole question is was he really in the right place at the right time, or was it a set up. . that is what people are asking, that is what the international community are now wondering, that is why people are writing books, that is why I am intrigued, that is why I am asking is he a hero or a fraud and a fool. I think you just read the title of my thread; perhaps that's why you are imagining I wrote something else.


I'm not sure why you might consider hundreds of thousands of Irish people who died in an 800 year war against an oppressor 'murdering cvnts'? Are those Polish people who fought in the world war 'murdering cvnts' also? You are utterly confused and clearly understood nothing I wrote:| I never questioned if the man was a good human being or not, why would I care ? I am questioning his true place in history and if he is a fraud or not. I am questioning how Polish people will react if recent alligations about him continue to gain popularity. You seem to be just answering some other questions you have in your head.

Your reaction is that I might anticipate from some Poles, as I suspect a lot will not accept any criticisim fo a hero. Your anger towards me whilst misplaced and ridiculous is expected somewhat considering you didnt underdstand what I wrote, or why

About Walęsa its liek this b4 1989 yr there was few ppl with Walęsa trying to do some good stuff to finish comunism, then the historical moment comes Walęsa is the one who lead all workers and opositionist , showed as a very nice jump thru the fance :P then he get more and more popular , in same time few ppl who was with him b4 starting to belive in SB very creative lies about Walęsa, maked just to row/bust-up his allies and him... so far alot of those lies is active even now and alot ppl belives in that... Ofc i dun like whats he doin now but still he is the one who Poland needed in those crappy days... and if im 23 yr old and i can leave in free country without comunism and stuff liek this he is the one who starts all the changes in Poland... so even if he dun act cool now we just cant take him away this honor cus he is rly HERO...

Definately a total idiot and probably also a traitor.

Regardless of his role in the fall of communism, these stories question if he was really a hero or not and who really put him in the 'right place at the right time'. Personally, I haven't the emotional attachment towards him as you have because I'm from Ireland. However I would imagine Polish people will be very hurt and angry if they realise after all this time that it was all a lie and he was set up to be a puppet? If more of these allegations are shown to be true, will Polish people believe them even? Will he be told to leave Poland before he goes of his own will? That is why all of these books are being published now, and why he is threatening to sue and leave Poland. What is interesting to me is that even though the publishers have asked him to sue them and disprove their 'lies' he has refused to, continuously. This to me seems strange for someone who has nothing to hide. I'm just intrigued by the man and I'm very curious to see where all this will end.

lies lol :P those books being published only cus this is good topic and easy way to make money, look at this in this way... why ppl who are way younger who just cant have any self experience from those times trying to judge him in their books... i mean cmon if u will write soem crap even is this is bigest lie ever about some very popular char u will sell ur book without problem...

I'd say the fact he is still around and has a public platform is testiment to him, where are all the great unionists from our past? I'd hazzard a guess and say they are all enjoying very nice pensions...Arthur Scargill anyone?

Perhaps, perhaps not, and of course controversy always makes money :) Do you not find it interesting that he refuses to sue for slander, and he is threatening to leave Poland because of these allegations ? that to me seems strange. A lot of research seems to have gone into these books, and I guess by his reaction to them it seems like he has something to hide. Im not sure if the truth (whatever it is) will come out through these books, but I do think that public oppinion towards Lech Walesa will be even more divided over the coming years. For me, an outsider living in Poland with a Polish girlfriend and an adopted Polish family I find it fascinating as I always had an intrest in Polish history and even more so now. But surely even the biggest lie must have some truth ?

Maybe has more about him and hasnt joined the "where there's blame there's a claim" brigade! There are some people in this world left with integrity! It would seem he is one of them...and because a few spotty teenagers couldn't care less what he did for their country speaks volumes about them, not him!

next lie :P no its not, i can say for exaple that u are... gay? ridiculus huh? it cant be truth ofc... but still i can keep telling that... ppl will look wierd at me but still they will listen cus i will yell very loud... and same things is with those books for me... tv and all other media only keeps this crazy circuit in move... last thing about Walęsa is makeing topic like this sure will bring some ppl to just read it but NEVER will change someone opinion about Walęsa if someone belives him he will keep belive same in other way...

greetings

I doubt very much a man that says . .

"Of course I'm getting paid. For one such guest-performance (at the anniversary of the supermarket Carrefour) I get from 10,000 to 100,000 Euro. I make a few million that way. Do you think that I would be able to survive on 3.000 PLN?" LW (Average salary in Poland is around 1,500 PLN)

. . .has much integrity when it comes to receiving money. That and there is a difference between someone claiming for whiplash than refusing to follow through a E33,000,000 legal case sueing for defamation of character regarding allegations of being an agent and dismissing his role in the fall of communisim, allegations that would bring not only his reputation into doubt but also the awards he has received.

From my experience of 'spotty teenagers' in Poland, most are very well educated compared to their British and Irish counterparts, and most take an intrest and pride in their culture that has long been diluted on our shores. What they dont have is the same sense of blind loyalty that generations before may have had, they also have an access to information and the freedom to question it

It's not about blind loyalty, it's about having been there and most of the people you are speaking to are enjoying a life their parents couldn't have even dreamt of! It's about a man that moved things forward in Poland and made the life they now have possible!

I sit down and eat with people who lived through communisim everyday, they are the very same people who are now beginning to doubt this man. The people I speak to are of all ages and backgrounds, and a lot are questioning this mans true role in moving things forward at all and if it was all just a set up, thus making him a fraud and not a hero at all

Regardless as a guest in Poland I find it all fascinating, Its a bit like watching a train crash


Good point, I agree but I guess time will tell as to how all this will change peoples perceptions of him. Im no authority on Polish oppinion by any means, but I sense peoples oppinion of Lech Walesa is changing already. Whatever the outcome, its all rather sad more than anything to be honest

lol...

Thats just what I expected off an arrogant spotty teenager!

bollocks, most of the young people doesn't care about slanders and accusations of the past, especially those based on the communist past, there was a time when people were being intimidated by SB into signing different documents and doing different stuff - it all looks really bad, but only when you can't see the broader picutre. And it's a weapon of political fight and mongering to dig out those situations from somebody's past without pinpointing those importang things.

So whatever will resurface from Walesa's past believe me, nobody will care besides some parochial politicians, foaming at their mouths and spouting nonsense. It doesn't have anything to do with pride or education, the stir around people's "communist" past doesn't concern younger generations and will hopefuly die out with time - because instead of bringing changes to this little country, it only brings another baton to somebody's hands - for less time spent creatively and more time spent on petty squabled.

When I said 'people' I wasnt referring to young people in particular, but Polish people generally. I think any nation anywhere who have a hero they hold up in high esteem would be perturbed by accussations that he was a fraud and that he had duped them. I agree that in many incidenses the pen can be used as a political weapon to discredit someone, but in this case why and for what ? He is of no relevance today and poses no threat to anyone. If anything he is considered an inarticulate fool so why would so many people go to such great lengths to discredit him ? More to the point why hasnt he proved them wrong and followed through on the threat to sue for millions ? Why does he feel these allegations are so important that he says he will 'leave Poland' if they continue, surely that in itself is suspicious ?

I disagree regarding people dont care and Im of the oppinion that a great deal of people will care. Regardless of their gratitude that communisim is dead, this man has represented their voice for a very long time. This man has also received their adulation, respect, awards and money. If he is shown as a fraud and his true role in history was a lie, that is an embarrassing reflection on Poland and those who reside there. Its also a tragedy for the man himself

I do agree that once Walseas generation pass, so too will much of the talk on Polands communist past . . . then again without history and weeding out the truth, we can not learn from mistakes and look to the future

If this Lech Wałęsa character is a fraud and a liar, frankly he deserves everything he gets and to leave Poland.

If not, its very sad because his name and character have been brought into question throughout the world and people will always think there is no smoke without fire

It's been almost 20 years....

Younger generations I'm talking about are people born in the 70' and later so it's a pretty fair amount of people.

Besides I think you are taking this too far, I think there was not, is not, nor will there ever be a question if he was a fraud, there are questions if he had some major lapses in his life but not to the degree you are bringing up.. it's simple, there were to many people around him many more people later, it would have been already in the spotlight. The question is if he had signed any agreements, loyalty documents, and so on, which I think would not be a downfall for him, taking into consideration how SB worked, threatning people that they will beat their kids and rape their wives.

And it ain't a novelty for most intelligent people, and the only way it concerns todays Poland is the thing I've already said, more fuel to the fire between the parties - when they should focus on building highways..

Generations which Walesa represented are dieing out, so I don't know who are you actually talking about. You can't say people and refer to all the people - just because of that - the difference between those who were touched by this very period of time and those were born in between or after, and have no real connections to it - connections which would make them feel offended by the presence of Walesa on the pedestal of this country's heroes - if there were any stains in his biography...

I also think that he was accused so many times, of different things, that it doesn't surprise, his words about leaving the country. You are asking for resons for people to discredit him, well if you're a great, well known person and a president you can't satisfy everyone - one of the golden rules of politics - he had his political decisions and now he's got enemies, simple as that. Especially in right wing parties.

There does seem to be a lot of questions concerned with if he was a fraud or not, and there are a lot of publications coming out detailing if he was an agent etc. The way I see it that Solidarnosc was restored in later 80s under Mr Walesas leadership. However a closer inspection deems that to be false. It was just technically a different organisation with the same name. Some might say nothing more than a typical communist trick (they did the same to PSL and PPS after the 2nd WW). So after Solidarnosc was recreated the old founders and leaders of the original one had to again apply as new members and they of course were never again allowed back to top. So Mr Walesa had full power, Communism fell down, well kind of but not really communists. The communists were now the only ones with money and the right connections who could buy. They were the only ones after transformation who had money and connections and who could buy back all the re privatised factories, they also took control of the newspapers and all media.

From my understanding of all this people are now saying Walesa was a puppet placed in his role to provide a soft landing by the regime whom knew communism was about to end but wanted to ensure a soft landing. Obviously they still wanted to have their cake and eat it so installed puppets like Kuron, Michnik, Walesa, Mazowiecki who would take over, be the new heroes and not allow very angry people put them into the prisons where they belonged. It actually makes perfect sense that they planted a stupid Muppet and a traitor who was promised a life of money and rewards for taking over the unions and begin making money for the real puppet masters. He seems to be an incredibly inarticulate guy (I'm only going by his interviews and some of the quotes he has come out with ) so I guess he was the perfect candidate.

The funny thing that strikes me is that the greatest enemy to Walsea is himself, if he didn't pretend to be intellectual and wise he would be remembered fondly and remain unquestioned. The very fact that he continuously comes across as a complete fool whilst pretending to be some sort of gift from God pisses people off and makes them wonder about and question his past. Didn't I read something about stealing documents that proved he was a traitor? Personally I think in light of all the allegations about him he should be investigated thoroughly, and either prosecuted or left alone.

As for the building of new highways, Poland joined the EU too late. . all the highways went to Spain :)))

Any public who has a hero, one who has received a noble prize and so many awards internationally would be angry and disappointed if they fell from their throne. When I wrote about generations, I meant that once Walesa's generation passes so too will much of the controversy and debates about the communist era. . Human nature, but his generation are very much alive today, as is this guy Walesa and his frequent travels as an ambassador for Poland.

Perhaps, if I was innocent and continuously persecuted I would probably have moved to Mexico years ago :) Having said that, I also know my intellectual limits and if my IQ was as seemingly low as his I would keep my mouth shut, permanently.

For those who doubt Wałęsa, I say this. He has defended himself, I think, 7 times in court. Also, ask yourself why communism wasn't brought down earlier. There was certainly ample desire to do so. The prevailing times put him in a sticky wicket.

Ask those like pawian who lived through the sixties and seventies. He'll tell you that things were kept under tight wraps.

Drastic times called for drastic action.

Yeah, a trick for sure. The tricksters tricked themselves out of power, didn't they?
And of course Moscow was a part of the trick and they too tricked themselves out of Poland. Quite an elaborate scheme :)

Walesa didn't get the nation's support for his IQ, education or erudition. However stupid and uneducated he was, it was him who started the collapse of communism in Europe. Whether that collapse was unavoidable or not, none of the PhDs or other MENSA members who now criticize him had the balls to climb that fence on the Gdansk Shipyard. Walesa did it and he will be remembered in history, while it will take about a generation or two and most of his critics won't be remembered even by their own descendants.

I explained (as have countless of others whose theory I’m using) the reasons behind why those in power might have propelled such a seemingly dumb guy into the spotlight. Moscow at the time (Gorbachov) was against the old ways of using force to retain power, and instead instructed the regime in Poland to enter into dialogue with the unions. Hardly very elaborate for a regime to ensure a soft landing for themselves, and incredible wealth, whilst avoiding prison :)

It wasn’t Walesa that started the collapse of communism in Europe (although of course he and others played their part) that is more an American mindset, or a very naive Polish one. The fall of communism in Eastern Europe was probably caused by a number of different factors, and there have been countless books and studies done detailing all. Gorbachev was the one that introduced policies that triggered communism to collapse, but it would take someone a lot more educated and wiser than me to break down all the reasons as to how Communism fell In Europe.

As for the famous climbing of the fence, I’ve seen a stupid man jump onto a the roof of a moving train in Dublin . . . the clever people watched :)

Walesa will be remembered in history, but if it will be kind to him is a different story. . and history eventually finds the truth :) whatever that may be, who knows !

Except that Walesa was already known around the world 4 years before most even heard about Gorbachev. Gorbachev saw Walesa in the spotlight and Gorbachev wasn't the one who put Walesa there.

Of course it was caused by a lot of factors, and of course Walesa alone is not responsible for the collapse, no one person is. But Walesa was the first one in the spotlight.


If you attempted something clever here you failed. I see no connection between a dumb Irish and Walesa's.


Unfortunately, that "truth" is often custom made to fit the times.