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What do Polish people think of burning the national flags?


RockyMason 19 | 250  
21 Apr 2008 /  #1
I think it is a fun activity to enjoyed by all! It's the most pure expression of our freedom of expression! =D They currently want to ban it in the good ol Nazi USA! If they do I am gonna keep burning flags til i get arrested and appeal it in court!
plk123 8 | 4,150  
21 Apr 2008 /  #2
I think it is a fun activity to enjoyed by all!

i agree. they've tried banning it before, i doubt that it'll happen now.. well, i sure hope not anyway. i think the senators ought to concentrate on more important things and quit fvcking around.
OP RockyMason 19 | 250  
21 Apr 2008 /  #3
Oh i know and what is next? I have seen booty shorts with an American flag on the ass! Will we be prosecuted if we spill grape juice on it too? Stupid American Nazis!
EbonyandBathory 5 | 249  
21 Apr 2008 /  #4
While I could never condone the criminalization of the burning of the flag, I'm not sure I could condone the actual activity either. Freedom of Speech allows us to express our opinions and burning the flag certainly does that, but Freedom of Speech also allows us to use our words to express ourselves, to use nuance and irony and layered argument, it allows us the freedom to strive to make our voices heard more intelligently than simply setting fire to an object that means different things to many.
Davey 13 | 388  
21 Apr 2008 /  #5
Why would you burn your country's flag?
dtaylor 9 | 823  
21 Apr 2008 /  #6
heat? :D
Krzysztof 2 | 973  
21 Apr 2008 /  #7
We don't burn flags to protest against the state.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryszard_Siwiec
Wahldo  
21 Apr 2008 /  #8
If burning fabric gets you off.. well. I'm more worried about the burning dollar.

This is still the "Polish" Forums, right?
Mali - | 300  
21 Apr 2008 /  #9
If people are p*ssed off with their gov't, then why shouldn't they be able to burn the flag? Maybe if the gov't would respect the citizens, the citizens would respect the flag.

Nazi USA

I'm thinking 'Stalin USA' would be more appropriate since Stalin was known for jailing civilians for things related to freedom of expression.
There's a comical play written by an American called 'Travesties' (Tom Stoppard) where four unlikely characters meet in Vienna during WWI and they sit around and discuss their 'art'. The characters were James Joyce, Tristan Tzara (sp?), Henry Carr (a 'nobody') and Joseph Stalin. Reading Stalin's take on art is sometimes reminiscent of what is going on in America: its okay to express yourself however you want, as long as you do it in a patriotic way. Obviously its an exaggerated version of the dictator but some parts were uncanny.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
21 Apr 2008 /  #10
If people are p*ssed off with their gov't, then why shouldn't they be able to burn the flag? Maybe if the gov't would respect the citizens, the citizens would respect the flag.

It's OK to criticize the government but does the flag really represent the government? Perhaps in feudal times it did.

IMO the flag represents the members of a nation, including those who burn the flag, and patriotism isn't necessarily the same as supporting one's government.
Mali - | 300  
21 Apr 2008 /  #11
It's OK to criticize the government but does the flag really represent the government? Perhaps in feudal times it did.

it's a symbolic representation of the government, IMO
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
21 Apr 2008 /  #12
Think again then.

Look at this symbol containing Polish flag:



Guess what. That flag did not represent the Polish government. It was used against it. It represented Poland and Polish patriots who were fed up with Poland's government.
plk123 8 | 4,150  
21 Apr 2008 /  #13
ms / Polish Culture / Start a new topic in the [Polish Culture] forum

What do polish people think of burning the national flags?

hey, wtf? this is not the original title!

While I could never condone the criminalization of the burning of the flag, I'm not sure I could condone the actual activity either. Freedom of Speech allows us to express our opinions and burning the flag certainly does that, but Freedom of Speech also allows us to use our words to express ourselves, to use nuance and irony and layered argument, it allows us the freedom to strive to make our voices heard more intelligently than simply setting fire to an object that means different things to many.

not every message needs to be complex. k.i.s.s. seems to work the best.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
22 Apr 2008 /  #14
It's the most pure expression of our freedom of expression!

Burning flags expresses nothing but disdain for the people who place great value in the symbolism of that flag. What argument do you put forward and that you hope will convince others by burning the flag?

On what grounds would you appeal if you were convicted?
Zgubiony 15 | 1,554  
22 Apr 2008 /  #15
I think it is a fun activity to enjoyed by all! It's the most pure expression of our freedom of expression! =D They currently want to ban it in the good ol Nazi USA! If they do I am gonna keep burning flags til i get arrested and appeal it in court!

Ok, but why don't you just leave? You compare the US to nazi Germany yet you still live here. Are you just full of hot air?

Enjoyed by all? I'll assume you"ve burned a flag in public then.
Mali - | 300  
22 Apr 2008 /  #16
Guess what. That flag did not represent the Polish government. It was used against it. It represented Poland and Polish patriots who were fed up with Poland's government.

In this case the people are using the flag for their cause, but in most cases I would associate it with the government or the state, I should say. The people can think of the flag as 'theirs' but really it is a representation of the state. Even if appropriated by the people, most nations have rules as to what you can do with the flag -> meaning that it is the state rather than the people.

Rocky, there are tons of 'rules' pertaining to the treatment of the flag, not being allowed to burn it is just one of many. There's a 'Flag Code', however there are no penalties as of yet for breaking the code. **so lame that there's a code in the first place**

According to ushistory:

When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace.

"the union of the flag should be placed at the peak of the staff." Section 8d reads, "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel." Section 8b reads, "The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground."

The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.

The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature

The best one is that a flag on a tshirt is still considered a flag, so it must be respected as such. If the tshirt is old and ratty, it must be 'retired in a dignified way'
Dzhaklin 3 | 166  
22 Apr 2008 /  #17
most of the flags here are made out of the material with plastic so they kind of melt instead of burn...
BubbaWoo 33 | 3,510  
22 Apr 2008 /  #18
i thought burning the spangly banner was tantamount to treason, punishable by a painful and public death.

obviously not

this might be an appropriate moment to mention how much i love america and good ol uncly sam
Mali - | 300  
22 Apr 2008 /  #19
i thought burning the spangly banner was tantamount to treason, punishable by a painful and public death.

technically, there is no punishment for it. However, the CIA will probably think you're a terrorist and will blacklist you and treat you to a vacation in a resort called Guatanamo Bay.
Dzhaklin 3 | 166  
22 Apr 2008 /  #20
But have you seen those beaches???
EbonyandBathory 5 | 249  
22 Apr 2008 /  #21
Just don't drink the water. Excuse me, I mean, just don't have the water forced into your mouth at high volume and speed.
OP RockyMason 19 | 250  
22 Apr 2008 /  #22
technically, there is no punishment for it. However, the CIA will probably think you're a terrorist and will blacklist you and treat you to a vacation in a resort called Guantanamo Bay.

That is not true! U can still get away with it. U might get shot by a disgruntled Iraqi veteran monkey though! I made a blog disrespecting the military on yahoo and was booted off. I received several death threats just for saying the military doesn't deserve any more respect than other occupations Mc Donald's employees included LOL.
Dzhaklin 3 | 166  
22 Apr 2008 /  #23
yeah you can get away with it and then 6 months later your family wonders where you disappeared to. lol
Mali - | 300  
22 Apr 2008 /  #24
That is not true! U can still get away with it. U might get shot by a disgruntled Iraqi veteran monkey though! I made a blog disrespecting the military on yahoo and was booted off. I recieved several death threats just for saying the military doesn't deserve any more respect than other occupations Mc Donalds employees included LOL.

Just you wait Rocky lol! Grow a beard and they'll reserve an all-inclusive package just for you.
People that serve burgers are even more patriotic than the military because they serve Freedom Fries! :)
Don't you love knowing that you're serving your country and clogging your arteries at the same time? yay for blind patriotism.

Just don't drink the water. Excuse me, I mean, just don't have the water forced into your mouth at high volume and speed.

Waterboarding is a sport in the Torture Olympics.
Zgubiony 15 | 1,554  
22 Apr 2008 /  #25
Yet, he's still here.

I'm a Veteran, what do you have to say to me?
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
22 Apr 2008 /  #26
in most cases I would associate it with the government or the state, I should say. The people can think of the flag as 'theirs' but really it is a representation of the state.

You are freely mixing concepts. Is it the State, the government, or the nation?

Let's look at Poland. The flag has been basically the same for over 200 years, while the governments and even the status of the Polish statehood changed during that time. Who did the flag represent if there was no Polish government, or Poland as a State?

Even if appropriated by the people, most nations have rules as to what you can do with the flag -> meaning that it is the state rather than the people.

Weak argument.
Most nations also have laws what you can do with other people - murder, prostitution, child abuse, adoption laws etc, are all regulated. Does that mean people's lives belong to the state?

And what about flags of nations who do not have an independent State, or government? Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia and a host of others were in that situation. Who do or did those flag represent when there was no state or government?

Our perceptions may differ because of a generation that sets us apart, and perhaps the culture, even though we are both Polish.

I don't want to sound too dramatic, but for me as a person born and raised in Poland, whose history has been so difficult in the last couple of centuries, it is not acceptable to burn the Polish flag. Thousands gave their lives for the right to display it. IMO this is similar to desecrating graves.
Mali - | 300  
22 Apr 2008 /  #27
Who did the flag represent if there was no Polish government, or Poland as a State?

The state does not always represent the majority of the people. How often do you get a majority govt? The state often serves in self interest at the expense of the masses.

Most nations also have laws what you can do with other people - murder, prostitution, child abuse, adoption laws etc, are all regulated. Does that mean people's lives belong to the state?

Actually, most laws are what you can not do, rather than what you can do.
In a centralized state, the lives of people pretty much belong to the government. Even in a neoliberal decentralized state where there is supposed to be little involvement of the state, as in the US, there is a lot of governmental involvement in people's lives.

And what about flags of nations who do not have an independent State, or government? Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia and a host of others were in that situation. Who do or did those flag represent when there was no state or government?

The people appropriated the flag as their own. Ultimately, I believe that the flag belongs to the state, once it is reinstated.

Our perceptions may differ because of a generation that sets us apart, and perhaps the culture, even though we are both Polish.

I don't want to sound too dramatic, but for me as a person born and raised in Poland, whose history has been so difficult in the last couple of centuries, it is not acceptable to burn the Polish flag. Thousands gave their lives for the right to display it. IMO this is similar to desecrating graves.

I don't think that they're anything wrong with wanting to display the flag or even being proud of it. However, if a people are fundamentally against what their government is doing (ie starting a war), they should be allowed to burn the flag to show their unhappiness and not be punished for it. Of course, the situation differs in many nations because of their history and I do think that it would be different to burn a flag in Poland (where people had to fight for their flag, as you said) versus the US where you are expected to agree with what the state is doing because you are unpatriotic if you disagree.
plk123 8 | 4,150  
22 Apr 2008 /  #28
this might be an appropriate moment to mention how much i love america and good ol uncly sam

lol.. suck up. :D :D

On what grounds would you appeal if you were convicted?

convicted of what? buring the flag is not illegal and it should never be.

Ok, but why don't you just leave? You compare the US to nazi Germany yet you still live here. Are you just full of hot air?

I'm a Veteran, what do you have to say to me?

you wouldn't like to hear what i would have to say so i'll spare you from my ideas. :D
the ptriotic thing would be to stay and fight for what you believe, not to leave.
BubbaWoo 33 | 3,510  
22 Apr 2008 /  #29
lol.. suck up. :D :D

forward planning mate ;-)
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
22 Apr 2008 /  #30
Well in the UK the only flag your allowed to burn is the Union Jack, its considered very un PC if you burn any other flag :):):):)

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