News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


First half is true, second half is not if I assume that by saying that Quran is not interpretable, you mean that there is one and only one possible interpretation. Unlike some other religions, Islam does not endorse a central authority like a Vatican. Every reader is responsible for his/her own interpretation and Quran itself acknowledges and anticipates multiple interpretation sometimes contradictory, sometimes driven by personal/political interests and sometimes out of total honesty. Sure you can look towards scholars for guidance and there are some rules of the game but in essence nobody can claim a final interpretation and thats why the most important and most repetitive message in this book is to educate and explore. The problem is the followers or in this case, the Muslims. Its a human nature, everywhere that a majority prefers to follow the herd like sheep. You can tell them anything in the name of religion and they won't question you.

As for the Ataturk approach, well it has already been tried and it failed. Musharraf idealized him and tried to redo the whole thing is Pakistan, the result was extremely counterproductive. We didn't see extremism as a problem until early 2000s.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Pakistani and Afghani Taliban prepare to join in
guardian.co.uk/world/audio/2009/mar/03/shah-taleban-pakistan-afghanistan

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Some good news


reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE51R0OE20090228?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&rpc=69&pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

and some really bad one :(, these people need to be brought to justice immediately, cricket is my other religion..
pkpolitics.com/2009/03/03/sri-lankan-tean-attacked-6-players-injured

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


hardly :), our government sells their own people for bounty

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

JohnP, thanks for listening. We need more of that on both sides.


I agree, you shouldn't right now. I am talking of the times before War on Terror started. But I do sincerely hope that this place makes it to your list one day. Presently, there is nothing left of their once cherished tourism industry. Even during the time when it was an independent state with their own sharia, outsiders didn't even notice anything peculiar about their laws. I went there around 2002 and local oldmen were still delightfully remembering the times when American hippies once "invaded" the valley during late 60s and 70s.

On the other hand, in a latest development in the valley, taliban have beheaded a 28 year old outspoken local TV reporter this evening just because they didn't like what he was saying. This act seriously questions their commitment towards finding a peaceful solution. The other armed group, TNSM has protested against their barbaric act, creating the first divide between two groups. If I can notice that, probably Pakistani government also had that in mind when they signed the agreement with TNSM. So even if the peace process doesn't work, government is playing their cards smartly.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Well plk123 I can try to explain it a bit. In essence it is so early to say what will come out of this deal. It may well prove to be a good for nothing step and fighting may resume in a week or two but assuming that it works. There are way too many misconceptions surrounding this. First of all, around 1200 civilians have been killed in this conflict and taliban have blown up around 200 girls schools, among many other horrendous crimes. As usual, the western media sees them as one united force. Infact however, there are two groups. One of them with whom, the deal was struck are also conservative but way more moderate than taliban. One example is that their headquaters are set up outside a girl's graduate college with academic activities commencing on as usual. The moderate group called TNSM has been struggling for Islamic law for ages now. Taliban have just joined the party and turned the whole struggle into a bloodbath. However TNSM claims to have influence on taliban and as a result of this deal, they have assured the government that taliban will leave the valley bringing back the peace.

As for the actual deal, it will be nothing like the taliban style sharia you have heard about so much (chopping off limbs, beheadings, beatings etc.) Taliban will NOT enforce this system and infact no new Islamic style judges will be appointed. The same common and criminal law will be applied to the region similar to the rest of the country and this law is a direct derivative of British common law. This valley survives on foreign and local tourism, its a beautiful place and houses a couple of nice ski resorts. Their livelihood depends so much on tourism that they simply cannot afford a taliban style sharia. Until 1969, Swat was an independent state and had their own moderate sharia. After it joined Pakistan, they were included in the regular justice system like the rest of the country. If some of you have heard about the ongoing judicial struggle by lawyers and civil society members in Pakistan, you must be aware that the legal system in Pakistan is expensive and painfully slow. Under the new deal, the locals of the valley will no longer have to travel to their provincial capital for hearings of their cases as a branch of the high court will be opened in their main town. Usually such hearings will go on for years and years. The judges will be the same as elsewhere in the country but they will be bound to solve all cases within three to six months. Morever lawyers will be appointed by the government free of charge to both parties.

The question however is that will TNSM be able to convince taliban to stop the fighting in the valley as a result of this concession. If taliban want their style of brutal law enforcements, then I dont think locals or the government will agree to that and sadly, the fighting will resume. However, even if that happens, it will surely divide TNSM and taliban who have been cooperating since the conflict started. TNSM are mainly locals and though both of them were on the same side upto this point, their ways of fighting were completely different. If this divide between the two groups occur, taliban will definitely find it hard to sustain themselves in the region without the local cooperation.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Well thats a bit subjective but Muslims themselves who have to deal with these radicals are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The secular side of affairs is also not very comforting for them since they perceive secularism as something associated with foreign invasions. So yes as a result of circumstances, their opinions are not very black & white as they should be ideally.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Yes they are but that doesn't mean the religion itself condones this. Those people are nothing but Islamic version of KKKs. They feel equally satisfied after brutally killing a muslim who doesn't agree with them.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Realistically speaking, even if the people of the country agree that the kidnappers should be brought to justice, a presence of a foreign battalion will most certainly raise many eyebrows, people are bound to ask this question what why did this operation need a foreign intrusion and if it were that important, why didn't the Pakistani army carried it out themselves. Times are sensitive and it won't be seen by many as a mere targeted operation but will send out a message that is going to be way out of proportions. On the other hand, it could be left to Pakistani army to do the job which of course will look at all the tactical implications and the pros/cons with estimated losses etc. They will ofcourse have to judge the political weight of the operation. Since the area is under militant's control, therefore it is very likely to be there at the military priority list of potential operations, since it is their problem and as well, considering that the local civilian life loss is also a frequent occurrence, the question is how much they are willing to promote it on the list and if it is tactically viable at all at this point.

Another issue is that even if the identity of the kidnappers is known, they are not some individuals but part of an organization and it won't be possible to take out afew while ignoring the rest. Such operations last for weeks if not months.

In terms of international diplomacy, I think Polish side has also analyzed the situation and probably they will leave the practicalities to the Pakistan army while diverting their own efforts towards diplomatic bargains if at all. In the real world, Polish representatives also have to chalk out their agenda while setting limits on how far they are willing to go with this issue.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


The reason I think it won't happen like this quite self-explanatory if you observe the circumstances. The place where they carried out this killing is one of their major strongholds. We are not talking about some kidnappers who have rented an empty warehouse in the suburbs where a revenge squad would do the job in a convert operation. It essentially means that in order to get to the kidnappers you will probably have to deal with many many more. So we are likely talking about a full scale military operation equal to an army battle which symbolically equals an act of war. What do you think?

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Well not really, I might actually go there around easter holidays, as they say, fear of the unknown is the worst. Last time I went there for holidays, it was during the Red mosque episode and I live in Islamabad too. Besides you are more likely to get hit by a truck given the fact that all truck drivers are drunk/high, than being blown up in a blast. I put my trust in statistics :)

As for the tribal areas, it has always been a tricky business. Even before 2001, they used to warn people including Pakistanis before they tried to enter the tribal areas that if you cross this line, you're on your own buddy. Historically the common/slang term used to describe tribal areas can be translated in English as "the unknown areas". These days they don't let anyone go there who has no business there.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

It is ironic but it still amuses me that I've been living in a "lions den" all my life :)

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Something I don't understand about G'Bay prison is that if everything was cool over there then why does it have to be in Cuba and not USA, clearly in violation of 1903 Cuban American Treaty. Any thoughts JohnP?

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


You are right about Musharraf. And the reason is that he was a dictator and like any other dictator he needed ways to legitimize his rule. He needed to prove to his people that look there is a serious problem going on in NW, and I am your only hope. The biggest proof is the Red Mosque episode. Those people had a huge arsenal of weapons right in the heart of the capital. How could it be that they were collecting those weapons for one whole year and nobody from the government knew about it. The reason is simple, he intentionally turned a blind eye towards the problem so that he can prove himself to be a hero at the end of the day. But right now, there's a democratic government and they know and if they don't do anything about it they're not gonna get elected next time. Military activities in the NW are much more stronger today than they were during Musharraf's time. During that period we never heard about any militants dying or gunship helicopters being used to pound their hideouts. Its such a coincidence that whenever there's a dictator in Pakistan, republicans are in power in US.


Well no comments. Like many, you probably also blame the whole population of 170 million for the acts of few. I am used to that now.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


No. They appreciate you for that. If the same people who were dancing after 9/11, were to be offered a green card, they wouldn't think twice before saying yes. Its the consistently biased policies of your governments that they despise.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

The news such as the following is a daily occurrence in Pakistan, sometimes I wonder why don't they make it to international media. There is no reason to blame people if they think Pakistanis are doing nothing.

geo.tv/2-9-2009/34773.htm

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Well maybe Pakistanis are not kidnapped and beheaded but trust me whenever something stupid is done by Taliban, its always a bad news for the rest of Pakistanis. Right after 9/11, within 3 months, the real estate prices in Pakistan went up by 600% because of all the US based Pakistanis who had to leave the country because of "hate crimes" and discrimination. A friend of mine who was studying at a US university and was no less lame than Millhouse was actually tortured and deported because he shared a flat with a Syrian. As far as I know there wasn't even a single Pakistani among the hijackers. And don't even ask me what I have to go through at the airports every single time. And I don't blame the public for that. Your governments have created such an environment of fear to legitimize their wars that this becomes a natural reaction. In Pakistan, maybe due to some British era nostalgia or just plain curiosity, foreigners are generally treated as very special by general public. Its episodes like this one that flush all their hospitality down the toilet.


First of all harbour is not the right word to describe the presence of terrorists in Pakistan. I am not denying the seriousness of the issue or their presence but it almost sounds like that our government has opened up a terrorist farm or something. These are all the remnants and offspring of remnants of Cold War. Even today, none of them (arabs, north african arabs, uzbeks, tajiks, syrians) come through Emirates airlines. They use Afghanistan as their transit which by the way won't even let us fence the boundary. What is the first thing you would do if your neighbor's kids wreck havoc in your open backyard? Before sending foreign troops into Pakistan which by the way would disturb the natural order of things for all 170 million, why don't they make any diplomatic efforts in terms of pursuing Afghanistan to close the border, even temporarily? Right now, forces in both countries share the same problem. Since they are legitimate armies, they cannot cross the boundary and only chase them upto a certain point, unfortunately same does not apply to terrorists, they cross it whenever they feel like. As for the 90,000 troops, its a question of their survival as well. If we don't defeat them talibans, it amounts to losing our own territory which atleast for the Pakistani army is more significant than the lives of Americans. So if they don't take this fight seriously, they'll end losing their own country. So I don't think there is a reason to doubt their commitment.

______________________________________

As far as those of you who are planning a tourist visa to chase them, I have a hint for you. If you have seen any of the videos of the Polish engineer, you might notice that there's a sign board in the background. And no, it doesn't say, Death to America. It reads, "Taliban movement Pakistan, Dara Adam Khel. Dara Adam Khel is the name of the place where they are located. Its one of the major strongholds of taliban with about a couple of hundred thousand civilians as well. Pakistan army has also used aerial bombings but before they do that, they have to evacuate the place from civilians. Already there are close to a million refugees living in camps as a result of such evacuations.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


except that a hero might inspire someone...a coward doesn't

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

I don't see how getting in there will solve anything. Those 90000 troops who are already stationed didn't go their to dance around a campfire. What if the foreign troops get there and they slip to India. I don't think anyone will be willing to lock horns with India.

When a militant gets killed by Pakistani army or a US drone generates totally different reactions among people. Killed by a drone unnecessarily turns a murderer into a hero in terms of public opinion.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


True Indeed. Pakistan as a nation state was created through a political and democratic process with no violet struggle however the consequent lines were controversial and arbitrary leading to confusion and mass chaos which resulted in a death of a million and the later India Pakistan conflict which is alive to this day. Similarly on the western front, the lines were again random as pointed out by plk123. Though the line was accepted by Afghanistan in 1893 as an agreement with the British, they disputed its validity in 1949 claiming that since British India does not exist anymore therefore the borders drawn by Britain also cease to exist, this dispute also continues till the present day.

There is a very simple solution which could have taken Pakistan completely out of the War on Terror picture and that is to fence the border. But since Afghanistan does not accept the border, therefore any fencing effort is out of question for them. As of today, the border exists as a line drawn with limestone and to the locals, this line carries no significance. On top of that Pakistan is blamed for not being able to keep an eye on a 2600 km chalk line.

_______________________

@JohnP
Thanks for your interest mate. Actually what I meant by "verified by CIA" was that its a matter of personal opinion depending on if you choose to trust CIA or not. Personally, CIA verification is not enough for me to believe but also just because it has been verified by CIA doesn't necessarily mean that obl is a dead meat. I generally take the opinions of intelligence agencies with a pinch of salt and its not just CIA. Intelligence agencies no matter where they belong, present, fabricate or distort the facts as they see fit, its their job.

As for the case that Bush Administration built up, it hasn't been fruitful yet. Supporting terrorist activities and actually carrying them out is two different things. Many other fascist regimes like Taliban are accused of harboring terrorists however we should have learned from the history that the solution is not to eliminate the regime but addressing the underlying concerns. Its been seven years since WoT began and still it just took Bush administration three weeks after 9/11 to attack Afghanistan. As far as i remember, Taliban had some terms and conditions and if the process had been given more time, probably something acceptable to both sides would've come out. Afterall, they are considering the dialogue option once again after seven years.

___________________________________________

As for Iran, I have no doubt that there program is not peaceful. However nuclear weapons itself is a tricky question. On one hand, these weapons are evil no doubt, on the other hand they provide a balance of power. In IndoPak case for example, there have been more than one occasions after 1998 (the nuclear testing year) when tension were high enough to guarantee an all out war and it didn't happen. When these countries didn't have nuclear weapons, they fought three full scale wars. So in a way WMD's also suggest a war protection mechanism. Take the cold war, the conflicts were big enough for a direct confrontation between Soviets and US leading to a third world war, however the actual war turned out to be a proxy event which led to the demise of Soviet Union without them exercising the nuclear option. So in my opinion, in case of Iran the question is not that if there program is peaceful or not but its about their real purpose. Do they want a balance of power in the region so that they can talk with Israel on equal terms or is it that they plan to wipe out whole middle east since a nuke won't just stay in Israel.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Noone knows for sure really. You are right about that. Sometime ago I heard that the guy is writing a book on his achievements these days. And if obl is such an ambiguous thing then probably allies did lose their original objective. All we do know is those tapes that appear occasionally, verified by CIA. So its a matter of opinion really. My point is that fighting those taliban and hunting down aq are two different things. Its not long before this whole war will start echoing Vietnam and Iraq. The goals are way too ambiguous for any side to claim victory and I have no idea what those additional US troops are expected to achieve. If the goal is to fight a fascist regime, why no go for N.Korea and Myanmar too. They are equally worse if not more.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Well first thing you people need to understand is that taliban have always been a local phenomenon. They had no anti-american agenda. I am talking about the Afghan taliban, Pakistanis one are just a reactionary/revenge element. If catching obl was the only goal allied forces had, then they should have listened to taliban in the first place. Allies need to straighten up their objectives first. Did they enter Afghanistan to dismentle aq leadership or bring democracy to Afghanistan. Either way, they are on the wrong track.

4:1 doesn't matter. Even 10:1 won't. Guerrilla warfare doesn't thrive on numbers. It only starts out when there is a striking contrast in the physical strengths . To kill your enemy, you need to identify it first and thats where the problem comes in. They disguise themselves as locals. No army in the world is trained for guerrilla wars. All those sophisticated B52s and UAVs are plain useless. A guerrilla war is more like chess and less like checkers.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Ok this is getting interesting now. You all felt for your Polish countryman right? If it was upto you, you would take the honor of beheading them and playing football with their heads.

You feel angry and frustrated over his killing although noone here claims to know him personally.

Now apply the same logic to all those innocent people who are losing their lives in vain. How do their immediate family members feel? Don't they feel like tying up a bomb to their bellies and just blow the crap out of whoever did it? Well thats exactly whats going on. If you kill one terrorist and one civilian you have probably created 5 more in the process.

As for the solution, the foremost is money. As I mentioned in my post earlier that not all taliban have the same level of commitment to the war, just buy out the ones that represent B and C companies cuz they are doing it just to feed their families. They have no other ideological agenda. Pakistan army is already engaging with the locals to pursuade them against the enemy but they complain about false promises with no results. If the militants have a bit of local support left thats because the locals have no faith in their own government. No roads no hospitals no schools. What do you expect from them? They don't even feel Pakistani cuz us "mainland" Pakistanis find them as exotic as you guys do. They needed to be integrated into the society on their terms and conditions, not by force. You need a pen to educate not a gun.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

I was talking about OBL, anyways, as you folks might have noticed that nobody is fighting a conventional war over there. There are already 90000 Pakistani troops there, more than 1100 have lost their lives, twice as many as allied forces put together. If it were a conventional war of enemy against enemy in a battlefield, don't you think that 90000 is a number big enough to defeat estimated 20000 militants (20000 is on the high end)?

Although I dont like where this discussion is heading towards but still I'll try to be unbiased.
Back in 2001, when our dictator decided to give in to "with us or against us" rhetoric, Pakistanis had a mixed opinion. Some of them thought there was no harm in doing that and he did the right thing, some others were opposing it, however they also had soft opinions and didn't result it any mass protests or agitation. Matters got worse when in 2004 when Pakistan military for the first time in history entered tribal areas and yet worse when US drones started attacking. Before 2004 there was not a single suicide bombing in the country, since then we have lost thousands of innocent lives.

My point -> plain old fist fight is not going to solve anything, as long as they (the militants) can find people who have lost their livelihoods because of this war and those who are victims of the war, they won't have trouble recruiting new people. If things go the way they are going, I can see the 2012 presidential candidate campaigning for "bring back the troops from Afghanistan".

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Go ahead :)
If I recall correctly, weren't these soldiers there in the first place to catch a guy?
What happened to that?

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Yea they could be speaking different languages. However since the area he was kidnapped from is not part of the tribal belt, the question of not seeing the things in the same light doesn't really fit here. The way it was reported in Pakistani media suggests that probably they (driver and the guard) didn't even communicate with the kidnappers. The whole episode started off with the kidnappers shooting at them and both of them ended up dead right on spot. It was a typical shoot and run surprise attack.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

He was kidnapped near Attock, a town in the north of Punjab. He was later taken to the tribal areas.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


See plk123, this is exactly why afghan taliban disown the Pakistani ones.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

In this case his bodyguard and driver in an SUV gave the wrong signal. He appeared like a high profile target. He was not even in the tribal areas.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Well it wasn't like that until recently. People are actually over friendly to foreigners. The last time I went there in 2007, I had loads of fun hanging out all over the countryside with some Spaniards and Swedes who were there on some documentary project. Its usually americans who take extra caution and live inside highly secure parameters. The europeans I knew had rented a flat in the city centre and were roaming around freely and interacting with locals. I think what made Stanczak suspicous was the fact that he was with an armed bodygaurd in an SUV. Ofcourse they killed the bodygaurd and the driver. When political interests come into picture, things change sadly. All it takes is a couple of such killings to make them foreigners Pakistanphopic.

As for Mr. Stanczak he was probably there for some oil/gas exploration project since the area he was kidnapped from has some reserves and there are many active companies in that region. But I am not 100% on this.