News / 14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion! [348]

Agata in both of her interviews made clear that she was raped and that she wanted an abortion. All other statements come from third persons (the anti-abortion doctor, teacher, ardent pro-lifer Gnyszka whose connection to the girl is none).

She gave written statement to that effect. But the hospital is breaking the law (again) and neither performing the procedure nor indicating another hospital where it will be carried out. Personally I am quite certain they will simply keep her in the hospital till the 12th week and Agata will no longer be entitled to a legal procedure.

An interesting thing: spokesman for the Ombudsman said that the girls' statements (she signed on Tuesday and another one last week) have no legal effect, as under the pressure of the pro-life doctor she had signed another one and, besides, "she may always change her mind". One wonders if the latter means that no signed document, except for the will of the deceased, has legal value?

As to the availability of legal abortion in Poland: the ca. 200 hundred cases prove the contrary and women have often problems with gaining abortion even if they are entitled to it. I've read that the last legal abortion in Lublin, the girls' voivodship, was performed in 2004 (!). Are there no rapes, incest, minor sex or health problems in that part of Poland? I beg to doubt.

As to some data: according to official sources, in 2003 there were in Poland 3 legal abortions resulting from rape, incest or sex with minor, in 2002- 2, in 2001-5, in 2002-2 and in 1999-one. Total: 13. EACH year there were ca. 2.300 noted rapes (only; incest etc are different category). One can oneself answer to what degree legal abortion is available to raped Polish women. In fact, the only thing which does make me wonder is why this case is so well known -usually just nobody cares.

Ah, one last thing regarding disclosing the girl's real identity: representative of the catholic forum Fronda (the ones which organised the protest) admitted on Newsweek's forum having posted it; there one can also find a link to a screenshot where Fronder's discuss the need to remove it from their forum:

good-times.webshots.com/album/563746239ZniAHy

Her real name and surname appeared also on another catholic website, szansaspotkania.net

News / 14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion! [348]

Few remarks from me, before i go for Sunday dinner:
1. Indeed, “Not my problem” is an answer of a true Catholic – you could not care less about the woman OR the child after birth. And save your eristic tricks on me, it just does not work.

2. As to coal miners etc. – it is a really bad example. Their special treatment has been a disgrace for Polish justice system for years. “Church people” are indeed not the only one privileged group; it does not make them less privileged.

3. > RCC regularly oppose every each military conflict.
Funny - could you show me any Episcopal documents calling for Polish troops leaving Iraq? (Possible in Polish) Because I do not know of any and believe me, I would. And aaah, Bosnia – where the Pope called on raped war victims to give birth, yet the Church was not strong enough there to actually force them.

4. Dalai Lama was refused a meeting with the Pope after the Tibetian massacre. And calling Dalai Lama, when Tibet under occupation of Chinese communistic regime, a ‘theocratic ruler’ is nothing but funny.

5. > This a human being and we don't have other choice but respect his freedom.
That is your personal opinion and not any objective, scientific truth.
6. "First they came…".
And that is a popular argument from people opposing legal abortion in Poland: it would supposedly lead to killing babies etc. Funny, like we do not observe anything like it in countries which have had legal abortion since decades. On the other hand, we observe constant radicalization of the anti-choice stance: when present abortion law was approved ca. 15 years ago, a right of a raped woman for abortion seemed undisputed, now- we can all see. If nobody reacts, we will wake up in Nicaragua-like reality (where abortion is allowed under no circumstances, even when woman’s life is endangered).

7. > She doesn't have the right to violate freedom of innocent person.
Who talks about an innocent person? It’s 10-week old foetus we are talking about. And yes, she has the right to an abortion -according to the Polish Law, which determines her rights in this case and not your or the Church’s beliefs.

News / 14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion! [348]

Please, let me enter the discussion.

> Not my problem?? What kind of answer is that?

That is an answer of a true Caholic. They only care that the baby is born; not whether – and how – s/he and the parents survive afterwards. Perfect example is case of Mrs Alicja Tysiac, who was also illegally denied abortion which threatened her already extremely poor eyesight. According to Mrs Tysiac herself, “57 Catholic organizations wrote to Strasburg [when the European Court of Justice stated that she was wronged], but none ever asked whether she and the baby could be helped”.

> priests have the right to voice their opinions
Here the case is not about ‘voicing an opinion’, but a priest following and pestering the family with bunch of older religious women, disrupting the hospital and even sticking to them in the police station. Which by the way shows that such people are above law in Poland, because when a normal private person in no way would be allowed to occupy the nurses’ office in hospital or hamper provision of medical services.

> [Church] lying to children in schools saying condoms do not work. A: BS
Well, as a Pole who went to school when religion was already there, I can only confirm: the cleric who had religion lessons with us (and other classes) presented as an undisputed fact that condoms do not work, and that women who use pills will die (generally) of breast cancer at the age of 50. It was in Warsaw.

As regards so-called Church’s respect for a human life, I will start to believe it when e.g. it will start to protest against Polish troops in Iraq (where they are killed and kill regularly – and Iraq is not even invading us); or when a Pope receives Dalai Lama and protests against Tibetians being murdered by the Chinese. Or when it will support Jerzy Owsiak, due to whose charity-raising action numerous, baby-life saving hospital equipment was bought. Alas, curiously this ‘respect’ means mostly opposing abortion regardless of the circumstances and the woman's fate.