News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

I am a muslim and a pakistani and an engineer too currently working in poland. I am truly shocked at this news since I am in similar shoes as that poor guy was. However what makes me sad is this ongoing discussion about true/false muslims. Whatever is happening over there is a political war and both stakeholders misuse religion and Islam to their own interest. Some western governments and media use it to fuel anti-islamic sentiments and those taliban use it against poor teenagers to recruit them. This is not a war of one ideology against another, its purely politically motivated just like any other war.

Its true that muslims need to be educated about many things and out of those things, many won't change. What we all need to to do accept each others cultural differences. I have seen and lived both cultures and I understand the justifications from both sides.

As far as the radical streak is concerned that a friend just mentioned, it doesnot necessarily support taliban ideology. I have lived in Pakistan for about 22 years and trust me folks, all those true/untrue/radical/moderate muslims are as scared of talibanization as you would be. They don't want it, some of them are not very vocal about it, some of them despise it but nobody religious or not, wants to live in a society where religion is imposed except for those who'll be the imposers.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Spot on Seasus,

What scares people is the fact that whenever there is corruption and too much injustice in the society, its usually followed by something revolutionary (iran, soviet union etc.). In this case it happens to be taliban who are offering an alternative that noone is willing to accept atleast in Pakistan proper. Whenever, someone happens to be victimized by the coalition forces (including Pakistanis), its provides a perfect opportunity for the radical leadership to get more recruits. Working for them means that you can earn pretty much the same as a fresh graduate. So this war needs to be fought at several fronts and not just military. Carpet bombings will just make things worse unless you eradicate the whole population.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Its hard to say. They don't have any moral support of masses in general. Their tactics are threat based. For example, one day some shopkeepers in a multimedia market would get a message to close down their businesses or face the consequences. If they don't comply, they would blow up a shop or two and make their point. So I would say that their tactics are threat based which are not likely to win any hearts and minds. Besides Pakistan is worlds 5th largest country with such a huge level of diversity that its painful.....really. To control such a massive population with threat alone is not likely going to work.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Well its a bit more complex than that but I'll try to explain it. I am not a practicing muslim but I studied it in great detail especially after 9/11 in order to understand what the whole fuss was about. Many of you will be surprised but IMHO there is no such thing as an Islamic system of government. Islam never intended to chalk out a country's constitution. If there was such a thing as an Islamic state, there would be no Shias and Sunnis today. Right after the death of Muhammad, a conflict broke out in terms of who gets to be the next Caliph which gave rise to shia and sunni factions. Among sunnis, there is one kind that are directly influenced by the Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia which is nothing more than a mean to control masses without giving them a chance to complain and all in the name of religion. The other kind which mostly exists in Pakistan and east of Pakistan, is the more easy going type. They may or may not take their religion seriously but they surely dont want a Saudi style system.

So when you talk about taliban infiltrating and forcing a system of belief, there is going to be a lot of opposition to that since there is no defined Islamic state as I mentioned earlier. In the tribal areas of Pakistan there is a battle going on already based on sacterian divide since there is a large Shia population living there who are obviously resistive against taliban. Based on their threat tactics, they cannot go all the way because sooner or later they will face some competition. Right now they are only limited to Pashtun settlements. Once they try to go out and create a similar situation elsewhere, they are not likely to win but this could very well mean a civil war.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


In simple words, every Pakistani. To be more specific, apart from military, that would be 34% Shiite population and hanfi sunnis who are sunnis like taleban but they don't follow the same school of thought and they actually represent the majority of sunni followers in Pakistan. Right now, they are cashing in from the sentiments of tribals (civilian casualities of war, poverty, lack of education), however for the tribal people themselves tribal traditions come before Islam and they have started to realize that taleban is a threat to their social structure as well. The problem is that Pakistani government is failing to act in terms of winning the local support simply because they don't have those kinds of resources to act.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Not at all. Nothing like that, you took me wrong. I was just comparing a reciprocal relationship that I share with him (RIP). I meant to say that I can understand what his family went through if same were to happen to me. I hope its clear :), my apologies if I offended you in some way :)


To some extent yes. But imagine a person who doesn't have any viable means to support his family. They offer them a good salary (when i first graduated from one of the best universities in the country I had the same salary as a taleban recruit today) and security to their family with a promise to support them in his absence/death.

Like any other military organization, taleban are not just a bunch of lunatic ready to blow suicide bombers. They have their alpha bravo and charlie companies with them too. So not everyone is a fighter, they need people to drive their vehicles, cook their food, bring in medical supplies, informers, spies and whatever else a military would need. So even if a person is not motivated enough to go on and blow himself up, he would not say no to a chef's job if he has no other choice. To give him an alternative, the government needs money and infrastructure in those areas which it doesn't have.

Thats exactly where a just military solution seems almost absurd. Since even among taleban, not every recruit shares the same degree of commitment to whatever their cause is. Lets say most of them won't say no to a better job offer. So not only a distinction between militants and civilians is required but they also need to distinguish within the group itself. Unfortunately, the whole philosophy of war on terror is way too binary, either you are a militant or you are not and even if you are not, its ok to kill a few in the name of collateral damage. The reality is that afghan taleban, pakistani taleban and al-qaeda are three seperate phenomena and they all happen to disown each other which I am sure many of you might not be aware of.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Thats where many conspiracy theories kick in. A simple straight forward and widely accepted answer would be drug money. Afghanistan and Pakistan share a very strategic geographic location and the presence of American troops is not an eye candy for the neighboring countries mainly Russia and China. China probably is just observing from a distance right now but its logical to assume that they might not be very happy about it since there is already a strategic US presence in the Pacific region. However so far they haven't been proposed in the money picture. However Russia does seem to have a fishy role especially after the Kyrgyz episode and the fact that all taleban use russian weapons. Iran is of course there too since they would not like US to stabilize in Afghanistan which will tighten the rope around their neck. Thats their main weapon smuggling route. When it comes to Pakistan, no story is complete without India in the picture and there have been stories floating of a possible indian financing scheme exclusively for anti-Pakistan groups. It became more evident after India opened up around 17 consulates in Afghanistan around the region that borders Pakistan, however I cannot comment on authenticity of this claim. Its an intelligent guess from within Pakistani think-tanks who also claim to have solid evidences of the money flow but who knows. One thing is for sure that there is not just one source of money. More than anything else, its money that will decide the eventual fate of this conflict.


First of all, all of them are not very centralized groups. Even within Pakistan several taleban groups operate that may or maynot cooperate with each other. As far as Al-qaeda is concerned, the story is also a mixed bag of cooperation and non-cooperation however afghani taliban do openly blame al-qaeda for their situation and hold them responsible for the presence of foreign forces in their country. A bit of political talk and incentives might help US achieve this goal. But then again if they had used a bit of brain they would've been able to pursuade taleban to handover OBL right there in 2001. Even at that time Afghan taleban didn't say no right away. They had their demands.

They also don't have a good opinion about pakistani taleban since they (afghan taleban) think that they have sort of hijacked their just movement. They are partly correct since pakistani taleban only appeared after 2004 as a reactionary/revenge element when Pakistan decided to send its troops to tribal areas in a haste. Compared to afghanis, Pakistani ones are a confused/angry group of half-ass fighters with no clear goals or objectives.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Yes, the ultimate cash crop, the biggest chunk of their GDP.


Thats why I said half-assed fighters with no clear objectives. Kidnapping an innocent low profile civilian and demanding the release of their most notorious fighters is ridiculous. Killing him would do them more harm than good. Just an cowardly act of frustration I guess

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Strong enough to actually start ruling the country entirely....no...
but they are definitely strong enough to sprinkle s**t here and there for years to come making the lives of Pakistanis more annoying. Pakistani intelligence estimates there numbers to be between 10k to 20k, not enough to take control but surely enough to make their point here and there. How do I know? cuz I am a Pakistani :) and how does such a small number (compared to 90000 Pakistani soldiers in the region) survive? The answer is simple, they use gurella warfare. They disguise themselves in civilian population making it harder for the army to correcting identify the true enemy without agitating the civilians.


I am not saying there are not connected in anyway, of course they are, I mean they use the same title atleast. But looking at the history of two movements tells a slightly different story. Afghan talibs were representing an organized movement and they have defined goals and objectives. Pakistani ones are like bouncing atoms in a baloon. Even within themselves, they are factionized, they even use different aliases at different places. Their leadership is divided and totally decentralized. For example at one occasion, it was discovered as a result of investigations that a certain sub group within them even provides "rent-a-bomber" services in return for money. Two groups somewhere in the central Pakistan had money dispute so one of the groups actually hired (bought?) a suicide bomber to have their revenge. Now when it comes to that how can they claim that they represent some kind of genuine political movement. In these conditions what pisses off afghan taliban is the fact that they use their name to further their own agenda.


Yea possibly among many candidate sources of money. However dont forget that he shares his fortures with a bunch of his brothers (bunch means alot in arabic :P) which dont share the same point of view as him. However there is no doubt that there is plenty of money flowing in from KSA into this war as well.


True until this war started. One of their so called good features was eradication of poppy culture from many areas. But now probably they are not sniffing it up themselves but they are definitely using it as a economic weapon. Otherwise there is no reasonable explanation in terms of where that money is going since in recent times, afghanistan accounts for about 90% heroin smuggled around the globe and that amounts to billions of dollars. And moreover the areas where it is growing is outside the influence of allied forces and currently in control of taliban. So there is no other reasonable explanation as to where that money is going.


According to Congressional Research Reports USA, poppy accounted for 60% of afghan GDP in 2004. 2005 was a bad year but 2006 and 2007 saw record crops. Infact 2006 was the biggest in history (source: NYTimes article: Is Afghanistan a narco state?)

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Well I am in UK at the moment so can't really comment. However I do have some close Polish friends and there are no complains there. Infact they were the ones who ended up consoling me since my parents are quite traumatized by whatever happened due this reciprocal situation. He was a Pole working in Pakistan and I am a Pakistani working in Poland. So my me and my family naturally took this tragedy more seriously than others. As for the people's attitude in general, I'll find that out in April. But I think even if they try to vent out their anger at me, I see their justification and I should be able to face it. For you people, its an ordinary internet discussion but for the majority of peace loving pakistanis outside Pakistan, it is a terrible situation just because we share the same nationality with a bunch of morons. They do it and we end up being hated for it.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Well it wasn't like that until recently. People are actually over friendly to foreigners. The last time I went there in 2007, I had loads of fun hanging out all over the countryside with some Spaniards and Swedes who were there on some documentary project. Its usually americans who take extra caution and live inside highly secure parameters. The europeans I knew had rented a flat in the city centre and were roaming around freely and interacting with locals. I think what made Stanczak suspicous was the fact that he was with an armed bodygaurd in an SUV. Ofcourse they killed the bodygaurd and the driver. When political interests come into picture, things change sadly. All it takes is a couple of such killings to make them foreigners Pakistanphopic.

As for Mr. Stanczak he was probably there for some oil/gas exploration project since the area he was kidnapped from has some reserves and there are many active companies in that region. But I am not 100% on this.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

In this case his bodyguard and driver in an SUV gave the wrong signal. He appeared like a high profile target. He was not even in the tribal areas.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


See plk123, this is exactly why afghan taliban disown the Pakistani ones.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

He was kidnapped near Attock, a town in the north of Punjab. He was later taken to the tribal areas.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Yea they could be speaking different languages. However since the area he was kidnapped from is not part of the tribal belt, the question of not seeing the things in the same light doesn't really fit here. The way it was reported in Pakistani media suggests that probably they (driver and the guard) didn't even communicate with the kidnappers. The whole episode started off with the kidnappers shooting at them and both of them ended up dead right on spot. It was a typical shoot and run surprise attack.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Go ahead :)
If I recall correctly, weren't these soldiers there in the first place to catch a guy?
What happened to that?

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

I was talking about OBL, anyways, as you folks might have noticed that nobody is fighting a conventional war over there. There are already 90000 Pakistani troops there, more than 1100 have lost their lives, twice as many as allied forces put together. If it were a conventional war of enemy against enemy in a battlefield, don't you think that 90000 is a number big enough to defeat estimated 20000 militants (20000 is on the high end)?

Although I dont like where this discussion is heading towards but still I'll try to be unbiased.
Back in 2001, when our dictator decided to give in to "with us or against us" rhetoric, Pakistanis had a mixed opinion. Some of them thought there was no harm in doing that and he did the right thing, some others were opposing it, however they also had soft opinions and didn't result it any mass protests or agitation. Matters got worse when in 2004 when Pakistan military for the first time in history entered tribal areas and yet worse when US drones started attacking. Before 2004 there was not a single suicide bombing in the country, since then we have lost thousands of innocent lives.

My point -> plain old fist fight is not going to solve anything, as long as they (the militants) can find people who have lost their livelihoods because of this war and those who are victims of the war, they won't have trouble recruiting new people. If things go the way they are going, I can see the 2012 presidential candidate campaigning for "bring back the troops from Afghanistan".

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Ok this is getting interesting now. You all felt for your Polish countryman right? If it was upto you, you would take the honor of beheading them and playing football with their heads.

You feel angry and frustrated over his killing although noone here claims to know him personally.

Now apply the same logic to all those innocent people who are losing their lives in vain. How do their immediate family members feel? Don't they feel like tying up a bomb to their bellies and just blow the crap out of whoever did it? Well thats exactly whats going on. If you kill one terrorist and one civilian you have probably created 5 more in the process.

As for the solution, the foremost is money. As I mentioned in my post earlier that not all taliban have the same level of commitment to the war, just buy out the ones that represent B and C companies cuz they are doing it just to feed their families. They have no other ideological agenda. Pakistan army is already engaging with the locals to pursuade them against the enemy but they complain about false promises with no results. If the militants have a bit of local support left thats because the locals have no faith in their own government. No roads no hospitals no schools. What do you expect from them? They don't even feel Pakistani cuz us "mainland" Pakistanis find them as exotic as you guys do. They needed to be integrated into the society on their terms and conditions, not by force. You need a pen to educate not a gun.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Well first thing you people need to understand is that taliban have always been a local phenomenon. They had no anti-american agenda. I am talking about the Afghan taliban, Pakistanis one are just a reactionary/revenge element. If catching obl was the only goal allied forces had, then they should have listened to taliban in the first place. Allies need to straighten up their objectives first. Did they enter Afghanistan to dismentle aq leadership or bring democracy to Afghanistan. Either way, they are on the wrong track.

4:1 doesn't matter. Even 10:1 won't. Guerrilla warfare doesn't thrive on numbers. It only starts out when there is a striking contrast in the physical strengths . To kill your enemy, you need to identify it first and thats where the problem comes in. They disguise themselves as locals. No army in the world is trained for guerrilla wars. All those sophisticated B52s and UAVs are plain useless. A guerrilla war is more like chess and less like checkers.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Noone knows for sure really. You are right about that. Sometime ago I heard that the guy is writing a book on his achievements these days. And if obl is such an ambiguous thing then probably allies did lose their original objective. All we do know is those tapes that appear occasionally, verified by CIA. So its a matter of opinion really. My point is that fighting those taliban and hunting down aq are two different things. Its not long before this whole war will start echoing Vietnam and Iraq. The goals are way too ambiguous for any side to claim victory and I have no idea what those additional US troops are expected to achieve. If the goal is to fight a fascist regime, why no go for N.Korea and Myanmar too. They are equally worse if not more.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


True Indeed. Pakistan as a nation state was created through a political and democratic process with no violet struggle however the consequent lines were controversial and arbitrary leading to confusion and mass chaos which resulted in a death of a million and the later India Pakistan conflict which is alive to this day. Similarly on the western front, the lines were again random as pointed out by plk123. Though the line was accepted by Afghanistan in 1893 as an agreement with the British, they disputed its validity in 1949 claiming that since British India does not exist anymore therefore the borders drawn by Britain also cease to exist, this dispute also continues till the present day.

There is a very simple solution which could have taken Pakistan completely out of the War on Terror picture and that is to fence the border. But since Afghanistan does not accept the border, therefore any fencing effort is out of question for them. As of today, the border exists as a line drawn with limestone and to the locals, this line carries no significance. On top of that Pakistan is blamed for not being able to keep an eye on a 2600 km chalk line.

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@JohnP
Thanks for your interest mate. Actually what I meant by "verified by CIA" was that its a matter of personal opinion depending on if you choose to trust CIA or not. Personally, CIA verification is not enough for me to believe but also just because it has been verified by CIA doesn't necessarily mean that obl is a dead meat. I generally take the opinions of intelligence agencies with a pinch of salt and its not just CIA. Intelligence agencies no matter where they belong, present, fabricate or distort the facts as they see fit, its their job.

As for the case that Bush Administration built up, it hasn't been fruitful yet. Supporting terrorist activities and actually carrying them out is two different things. Many other fascist regimes like Taliban are accused of harboring terrorists however we should have learned from the history that the solution is not to eliminate the regime but addressing the underlying concerns. Its been seven years since WoT began and still it just took Bush administration three weeks after 9/11 to attack Afghanistan. As far as i remember, Taliban had some terms and conditions and if the process had been given more time, probably something acceptable to both sides would've come out. Afterall, they are considering the dialogue option once again after seven years.

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As for Iran, I have no doubt that there program is not peaceful. However nuclear weapons itself is a tricky question. On one hand, these weapons are evil no doubt, on the other hand they provide a balance of power. In IndoPak case for example, there have been more than one occasions after 1998 (the nuclear testing year) when tension were high enough to guarantee an all out war and it didn't happen. When these countries didn't have nuclear weapons, they fought three full scale wars. So in a way WMD's also suggest a war protection mechanism. Take the cold war, the conflicts were big enough for a direct confrontation between Soviets and US leading to a third world war, however the actual war turned out to be a proxy event which led to the demise of Soviet Union without them exercising the nuclear option. So in my opinion, in case of Iran the question is not that if there program is peaceful or not but its about their real purpose. Do they want a balance of power in the region so that they can talk with Israel on equal terms or is it that they plan to wipe out whole middle east since a nuke won't just stay in Israel.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

I don't see how getting in there will solve anything. Those 90000 troops who are already stationed didn't go their to dance around a campfire. What if the foreign troops get there and they slip to India. I don't think anyone will be willing to lock horns with India.

When a militant gets killed by Pakistani army or a US drone generates totally different reactions among people. Killed by a drone unnecessarily turns a murderer into a hero in terms of public opinion.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


except that a hero might inspire someone...a coward doesn't

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Well maybe Pakistanis are not kidnapped and beheaded but trust me whenever something stupid is done by Taliban, its always a bad news for the rest of Pakistanis. Right after 9/11, within 3 months, the real estate prices in Pakistan went up by 600% because of all the US based Pakistanis who had to leave the country because of "hate crimes" and discrimination. A friend of mine who was studying at a US university and was no less lame than Millhouse was actually tortured and deported because he shared a flat with a Syrian. As far as I know there wasn't even a single Pakistani among the hijackers. And don't even ask me what I have to go through at the airports every single time. And I don't blame the public for that. Your governments have created such an environment of fear to legitimize their wars that this becomes a natural reaction. In Pakistan, maybe due to some British era nostalgia or just plain curiosity, foreigners are generally treated as very special by general public. Its episodes like this one that flush all their hospitality down the toilet.


First of all harbour is not the right word to describe the presence of terrorists in Pakistan. I am not denying the seriousness of the issue or their presence but it almost sounds like that our government has opened up a terrorist farm or something. These are all the remnants and offspring of remnants of Cold War. Even today, none of them (arabs, north african arabs, uzbeks, tajiks, syrians) come through Emirates airlines. They use Afghanistan as their transit which by the way won't even let us fence the boundary. What is the first thing you would do if your neighbor's kids wreck havoc in your open backyard? Before sending foreign troops into Pakistan which by the way would disturb the natural order of things for all 170 million, why don't they make any diplomatic efforts in terms of pursuing Afghanistan to close the border, even temporarily? Right now, forces in both countries share the same problem. Since they are legitimate armies, they cannot cross the boundary and only chase them upto a certain point, unfortunately same does not apply to terrorists, they cross it whenever they feel like. As for the 90,000 troops, its a question of their survival as well. If we don't defeat them talibans, it amounts to losing our own territory which atleast for the Pakistani army is more significant than the lives of Americans. So if they don't take this fight seriously, they'll end losing their own country. So I don't think there is a reason to doubt their commitment.

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As far as those of you who are planning a tourist visa to chase them, I have a hint for you. If you have seen any of the videos of the Polish engineer, you might notice that there's a sign board in the background. And no, it doesn't say, Death to America. It reads, "Taliban movement Pakistan, Dara Adam Khel. Dara Adam Khel is the name of the place where they are located. Its one of the major strongholds of taliban with about a couple of hundred thousand civilians as well. Pakistan army has also used aerial bombings but before they do that, they have to evacuate the place from civilians. Already there are close to a million refugees living in camps as a result of such evacuations.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

The news such as the following is a daily occurrence in Pakistan, sometimes I wonder why don't they make it to international media. There is no reason to blame people if they think Pakistanis are doing nothing.

geo.tv/2-9-2009/34773.htm

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


No. They appreciate you for that. If the same people who were dancing after 9/11, were to be offered a green card, they wouldn't think twice before saying yes. Its the consistently biased policies of your governments that they despise.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


You are right about Musharraf. And the reason is that he was a dictator and like any other dictator he needed ways to legitimize his rule. He needed to prove to his people that look there is a serious problem going on in NW, and I am your only hope. The biggest proof is the Red Mosque episode. Those people had a huge arsenal of weapons right in the heart of the capital. How could it be that they were collecting those weapons for one whole year and nobody from the government knew about it. The reason is simple, he intentionally turned a blind eye towards the problem so that he can prove himself to be a hero at the end of the day. But right now, there's a democratic government and they know and if they don't do anything about it they're not gonna get elected next time. Military activities in the NW are much more stronger today than they were during Musharraf's time. During that period we never heard about any militants dying or gunship helicopters being used to pound their hideouts. Its such a coincidence that whenever there's a dictator in Pakistan, republicans are in power in US.


Well no comments. Like many, you probably also blame the whole population of 170 million for the acts of few. I am used to that now.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Something I don't understand about G'Bay prison is that if everything was cool over there then why does it have to be in Cuba and not USA, clearly in violation of 1903 Cuban American Treaty. Any thoughts JohnP?

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

It is ironic but it still amuses me that I've been living in a "lions den" all my life :)

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Well not really, I might actually go there around easter holidays, as they say, fear of the unknown is the worst. Last time I went there for holidays, it was during the Red mosque episode and I live in Islamabad too. Besides you are more likely to get hit by a truck given the fact that all truck drivers are drunk/high, than being blown up in a blast. I put my trust in statistics :)

As for the tribal areas, it has always been a tricky business. Even before 2001, they used to warn people including Pakistanis before they tried to enter the tribal areas that if you cross this line, you're on your own buddy. Historically the common/slang term used to describe tribal areas can be translated in English as "the unknown areas". These days they don't let anyone go there who has no business there.