History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

Everyone who don't know or forget, definition of internet troll is here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

Just please don't feed him, it is the only way (if you are not an admin).
Conversation is pointless.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

Puzzler I've wrote you could be, now I'm sure you are a troll.
Everyone, pls don't feed him, I'm sorry that I was feeding him. I'm affraid this thread is lost.

"PS. You allege I did not exhibit 'cultural manners' while talking with you. Where, when? Give the facts."
I saw how did you talk with the others, that is enough for me. One cann't be cultural partially.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

Puzzler, I've wonder if I should answer you or not, because it seems to me that you could be a troll, and the main rule is "don't feed the trolls". But maybe I'm wrong, so I've post this and will see what happens. It would be great dissapoiment if my concerns will confirm because that thread become quite interesting. So:

<
First and simple there was (still is) some anti-semitism in Poland.
Puzzler - And what do you specifically mean in the above statement, what facts? Give them.
>
From personal view: persons in my family which just are against Jews but don't know why. In general, wall descriptions, Jewish cementery vandalizm what happens from time to time. But to make you feel better, from my perspective it is vanishing thing, and is nothing like in France for example but from different reasons.

<1. for them Poland is one big cementery, and in some way we are walking on theirs ancestors graves
Puzzler - And what do you specifically mean by that? IS Poland in reality such a cemetery, or ISN'T? In what way are you and others (you refer to you all as 'we') walking 'on theirs ancestors graves' [sic]? Give facts.

>

"Poland as a big cementery" - such sentence is called metaphor. The fact is, that almost entire Jewish population was killed on our land, and it is enough of facts to make such metaphor. But if you try read all my previous post you will see that I'm against such view of my homeland, I just understand their (some Jews) position in that matter.

<"they bear a grudge against Poles, I understood because Poles didn't protect them (in general, Jews)
- Is the 'grudge' justified by facts, or not?
>
Again if you try read all my post you will see, that I don't agree with that view, but I understand emotional background here.

Thats all, now enough of your questions, answer me the same questions you've make to me. Give me some proper argumentation and discuss in cultural manner. Show me that you are not a troll.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

"Puzzler: What are the origins of the Jewish hate of the Poles?"
Well... that is harsh question... First and simple there was (still is) some anti-semitism in Poland. It is working in both directions like third Newton rule. But this is simplification.

What move me the most in this regard was some documentary about couple of old Jews on the trip in Poland. The question was: "What do you fell in Poland, what do you think about Poland?". The answer was in short:

1. for them Poland is one big cementery, and in some way we are walking on theirs ancestors graves
2. they bear a grudge against Poles, I understood because Poles didn't protect them (in general, Jews)
After such tragedy emotions are stronger than rationality, they knew about it, but they couldn't change what they have felt. I think that this feeling is transfering on younger generation. But younger generation has no connection with Poland, and not every young Jew has enough of will to learn that:

ad.1 Poland is even bigger cementary for Poles, but we will still live here exactly because of that
ad.2 6000 from 22000 trees in Yad Vashem are trees for Poles.
During the German occupation in Poland if somebody was hiding Jews, punishment for that was death. Unfortunatelly in real live number of heroes is limited.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

yehudi, I didn't say Jews are saying that. The last accident I can remeber was some Canadian journalist. It isn't of course main problem, that is why originally I post it in PS. section.

Seanus about this brainwashing. I didn't want to imply that Germans believe in "Polish concentration camps". I've wrote:
"Very clever indeed, that and this funny idea that WWII and all this attrocities was commited by nazist not Germans... There is actually a lot of Germans that trully belive in that crap :-)"

What I mean is that in Germany you can still encounter people strongly beliving that there was honourable Wehrmacht and diabolic SS. Germans vs Nazi contradiction.

Which is false. I'm aware that Germans after war went trully through some kind of purgatory and I respect that. But this soldiers, fathers, brothers and uncles from army went back home. And from things I've read they were like "we don't talk about it, we were simple soldiers". It is understandable, everybody has to live with oneself. But because of that, again what I've read, some kind of false dichotomy was born. Only recently, probably beacause all this old men are simply dying, this dichotomy is falling down. So if we can use term brainwashing, then it would be brainwashing on the family level, kind of big family secret.

PS. And again it was only in PS section, I didn't intend to make from it big issue on that thread

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

If that was rather meant sarcastically then sorry Bratwurst Boy, my english sucks too... :-)
Mine "tricky Germans" was too rather meant sarcastically... But not in the whole. Planned or not, it is what it is. Typical foreign tourist in Poland is like this:

1. Krakow
2. Wieliczka
3. Auschwitz-Birkenau

And then he/she return home and make blog about trip and write:
"uhhh, I was in Polish concentration camp, very tough experience. How could they do things like that..."

PS. Thanks DtLebowski

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

Thanks Seanus, my English is what it is... Sometimes I just have to make comment and hope not to make to many errors :-) But if you have in mind that part about "Germans beliefs" then unfortunately present time is necessary. (unless you have in mind some gramatic rule regarding past tense). Not so long ago (few years?) in Germany there was quite a discovery. They found out that Wermacht actually did similar stuff that SS. Better late than never...

PS. about this "Polish camps", it happens all the time. Now, when it happens, proper Polish embassy makes protest, usually journalist appologize, but not always. Recently even name for camp in Unesco was changed, from

"Concentration Camp Auschwitz" for "German Nazi Concentration and Extermination Camp".
We will see if that helps.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

Some good stuff here, let me throw few more general reasons (and some of this was working not only in Poland but in all Europe):

- traditional jews couldn't mix with not jews, so they never trully integrated with the rest of the population,
- they kept their own language, moreover most of them came to Poland trough Germany so they also used much of German words
- Jews were mostly merchants and craftsmen, they mostly lived in the towns, Poles mostly were farmers. So when industralization took place, Jews were better positioned and richer,

- Poland was for a long time occupied (mainly XIX), because Jews weren't integrated they didn't care much about it. So simple "who is not with us is against us" was working in Polish minds,

- and for most centuries important "christianity versus older brothers in faith" but not only in a way you think of. In "Pillars of Earth" by Ken Follet, which of course is not historic but fabular book, there is nonetheless interesting passage: <Some knight wanted money, what did he do? He borrow it from some Jews>, because Jews were for long time important part of banking system. If some bishop needed money he borrow it too. From time to time, when they had to pay off debt, they just unleashed propaganda in churches about this "diabolic jews" in consequence there were riots, many Jews were killed, and few of the dead ones accidentally was bankers. For nobility problem was solved, but hatred stayed. (If I remeber properly one of true reasons of drive out Jews from Spain in XIV century was debts and fight for reign.)

In begining of XX century Jews in Poland actually started to trully integrate. More and more of them started to be just a citizen with different religion. Many of the greatest Polish artists and scientist were Jews in that time. And that was the case in all Europe. THE SAD thing is that WWII happend and destroyed that.

PS. Bratwurst Boy: "Why do you think the world is focusing on Poles..."
Simply because you tricky Germans choose Poland as a main place for concentration camps... So many not very good educated foreigners tends to write about "Polish concentration camps". Very clever indeed, that and this funny idea that WWII and all this attrocities was commited by nazist not Germans... There is actually a lot of Germans that trully belive in that crap :-)

News / SHOULD POLAND/EUROPE BE WORRIED ABOUT RUSSIA?? [90]

As I post before on these forums there is one big geopolitical issue between Russia and Poland. It is unfortunate but it is reality.
So, once again: the name of that issue is future of Ukraine and Belarus.
Poland see this countries as future members of UE or at least strong and independent democracies. Russia see them as future members of some multinational entity lead by Russia or at least dependent countries. For both countries this is a critical issue, so this conflict extrapolate on other things. For last couple of years there are clearly visible trends:

- in Russia policy towards Poland - prevent Poland from growing bigger in economical and political sense (mainly in EU forum)
- in Poland policy towards Russia - prevent Russia from entering central european markets, blocking Russia in EU.

Obviously Poland is much weaker in that game. We are still playing only because EU leverage and strong support for independence in Ukraine. Belarus is almost lost. So, yes, from that point of view Poland can be worried about Russia.

PS. Can we be friends? I hope so, but I'll believe in that when Kaliningrad become kind of Hongkong. Now it still is like one enormous air craft, obviously something to worry about.