News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


I dont know what would happen first, Belarussian army running out of fuel, out of ammo or getting owned by Poles, possibly all three.

At a whooping 1/3rd of Ukrainian GDP (Ukrainians are estimated to have 400-500 tanks operational) Belarussian army is running around on vodka and foul language.


But the risk of losing several voivodships is still there, imagine losing Lower Silesia or Greater/Lesser Poland, it'd fvck up our economy back to stoneage.


Well improving our army will also give us a deterrent factor without the added risk of becoming a shiny glass desert.

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


Those priorities are already chosen, we're already paying for stuff like F-16s and Patria AMVs, if we chose to finance nukes now, apart from the political chaos that would start we'd lose a LOT of money that we dont really have and when you have nukes they need to be maintained and housed, warhead carriers are not cheap either.

One other thing that i'm not happy at all about would be a nuclear reactor, Ukraine lost a huge patch of its country, i wouldnt like any of our major cities to start glowing.

We're still going to have to go nuclear as far as energy but there's safer reactors that dont allow for enriching Uranium.

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


We need to replace or purchase more of:

Frigates.
Corvettes.
85% of main battle tanks.
Infantry fighting vehicles.
Self propelled artillery.
Self propelled rocket artillery.
Personal weapons.
45% of fighter jets.
Attack helicopters.
Transport helicopters.
4x4 utility transport.
Combat vests.
Self propelled AA systems.
Tank shells.
UAVs.
Modern fighter jets.
More AT modern AT weapons.

Thats only selected examples, theres dozens more.

We're basically transitioning from a soviet era army to a modern military and while we're centuries ahead any other country in ex Soviet Europe we're still going to be paying through the nose for about 20 years before we get a truly modern army, where will you get additional money for those 20-30 nukes and assorted stuff?


Except that the level of life of an average Pakistani citizen is what it is and their army is not exactly top notch.

As for Israel its being pumped with US help and offsets.
[quote=Bratwurst Boy]One example our future unit of german/polish soldiers will need to guard against enemies:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8337735.stm
rulen.com/kkk/kkkflag2.jpg

Join european task force in Africa (couldnt help it) :))

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


Ha! We've been there twice in Moscow no less! But yeah currently they're just too big.


Its not a question of working double time but available technologies, you can work triple time and you wont create a plasma rifle anytime soon.


The immidiate future of this project is the new general standard for rich countries like Germany and elite frontline units for poorer countries like Poland.


That wouldnt be that expensive, we're not Iran we've got all neccesary technologies here and as for resources we could buy them from China or India (if we got really redneck about getting nukes) but its still loads of money that'd have to come from somewhere.


Where will you get money for them though? (i'm disregarding political implications).


And we did it! True in the end they kicked us out but only because we (our king) lost interest, we even made our kings royal brat a Tzar and had their Tzar become a monk:)))

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


Woah there champ, 100 warhead and lets say 40 missilies to carry them, thats a LOT of money and we aint exactly USA when it comes to $.


This article basically tells you that maybe probably some unspecified time in the future some of the options could possible be made, maybe.


And if NATO which is to say Germany joins with its full weight Russia gets a boot up their face by combined Polish and German armies and the war ends in Belarus with some sort of armistice.


Iraq has a population of 31 milion and is France sized, Russia has 140 milion and is continent sized.

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


And why in heavens name would NATO want to occupy Russia?


Amen, Russia might or might not attack Poland someday in the future but nukes? Unless Harry becomes next Russian president Poland doesnt get nuked by anyone.

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


Ah but what future? We're now 64 years after WW2 and our weapons are basically refinements of WW2 concepts, there's no jetpack infantry and Germany untill very recently used what was a copy of their WW2 light machinegun (we still got it on our Leo 2s).


But even today wars aint fought with masses, the price of equipment dictates that armies be smaller and that negates any advantage a country like China would have militarily.


Which is what Russia boils down to, there's a difference between geographic Russia and demographic Russia.


By Poland?

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


Ugh... we could get into who invented what but we've been there a dozen times, suffice to say Germany was among the leaders but not really the leader.


Not really, the concept of future warrior got way ahead of its time, eventually late commers like Poland and Germany just dropped the concepts of power armor and other SF stuff and focused on what can be done with our science and cost effective.


Well there's no real enemies, central and western Europe aint going to war and Russia isnt exactly a military giant, at the same time we're in a financial mess.

I'm not a pacifist but there's no point in having more then we have already.


Why? It all boils down to how many troops you can arm and train, you can have 50 milion reservists but if their military training amounts to point rifle and squeeze trigger then you're going to massacre them at a rate no country can afford.


The difference between WW2 and now is that the world had completely new tools (airforce, tanks, self propelled arty, mechanized units) and you were the only ones who developed them to their full potential, the weapons we have today are largely developments of WW2 concepts so of course some things changed but the war is not revolutionary different.

You still need air dominance, you still need tanks on open plains, we use artillery a bit differently because its more precise but you still need to shell the f*ck out of anything before you attack it.

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


USA which has a lot more brains and money to buy even more brains stopped at around the same stage as you did, i suspect what we're looking at now is mostly it.


Dont expect a revolution here either, we're basically using concepts from 50 years ago, some evolved and the equipment got expensive and armies consequently got smaller but the way we fight today is not that different from 1944-45.


Well we've got our own future warrior thing on the roll.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projekt_TYTAN

Creating new generation of battle uniforms
Creating new generation of tactical equipment
Developing new electronics and optics technologies
Developing new communication systems
Modernisation of equipment and adjusting it to current standards
Researching new generation balistic shields

Main Weapon
Personal Computer ( GPS system, Maps, Nightvision, Friend or Foe System, communications system, Weapon's crosshair system)
Lithium-ion battery
Helmet with display, headphones and microphone
Modular body armor

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]

You basically armed a soldier with a gun based on an American 70s design, slapped him in some better protection and improved communication, its a solid improvement but not really a revolution.


When discussing Russian military a reality check is needed, they're aiming to have 3000 tanks left in line so we can guess thats about the number they have active anyway, in case of war with Poland they still have to have tanks on the border with China, in Georgia, Chechenya and some reserves, so how many tanks would be used? 1500-2000? Poland would face 2-1 odds at most.

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


They do if you want them to fight in a regular conflict.


Well we dont.


You shouldnt, thats a good strong force if it manages to get mobilised, by comparison Russia is unlikely to field more then 300.000 battle worthy units, and thats being extremely optimistic, Germany can probably arm even less soldiers then we do (though their equipment is light years ahead).


Replacements, also in communist era we had enough equipment to arm over a milion men (though whether that army was better then the current one is arguable).


They're one of the most expensive modernisation blocks out there and outperform every European fighter jet currently in service (including the Eurofighter) though Typhoons will get superior with the later production batches, its still going to be one of the best fighter jets in Europe.

The problem with you and most people out of the topic is that you dont realise a jet can be modernized to match or outperform newer designs by principle of just how bloody awesome and prone to modifications its basic design is.

For example F-16 is faster then the Eurofighter.

Love / Sending flowers to my Polish boyfriend [73]


No Shelly, women who buy flowers need to be shot as an example and warning.


I'd feel castrated if i got any, seriously its wrong.

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


Actually its not ridiculously low, 230.000 troops is quite a large force and its head and shoulders above its Russian counterparts, if mobilisation would be managed in time we'd have a good shot at succesfull defence against both Russia and Belarus (provided we dont get nuked).


Oh the rifles are the least of our problems.


Well for example we have 970 tanks and no further tanks in stockpile, around 110 combat planes and no further planes in reserve.

Same goes for self propelled artillery, our strategic stockpile consists mostly of towed artillery, AA assets, a small number of older armored vehicles, machineguns, rifles and RPGs so the troops would be mostly used as reach echelon, low profile protection and infantry bolstering mechanized formations.

As for links there's no links out there, all i know are guesstimates from Niezależne Forum o Wojsku but these guys know their stuff so i'm willing to bet on their opinions.


Gay parade?


Actually right now our F-16s are the best fighters in Europe.

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


Poland can arm approximately 230.000 troops.


And approximately a quarter of a milion combat rifles of all types (AKMS, Beryl, Miniberyl etc).

What are you going to arm the remaining 2.725.000 with? Every country has a strategic reserve in case of war which allows a number of troops to be outfitted, and even then only the professional 100k large core force would be armed with up to date equipment, the reserve would have gear from cold war era stockpiles.


What weapons? To arm 3 milion men you would need additional trucks, APCs, tanks etc.

We dont have enough combat rifles to arm even 20% of that number.

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


Without a moments notice, Germany is crucial to France and UK having their beer in peace, Poland not really.


In part yes but now Russia is slowly becoming the devil, we're unable to integrate Russia into anything because for all intents and purposes its a completely different planet and because they're not a part of anything their old schizophrenical idea of besieged fortress Russia is getting bigger.


Its all business Shelly, Germany is directly threatened by being next in line while UK is separated from the entire mess by France, the ocean and a sense of humor.

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


Nah we're playing the old Polish game of when the Russians invade, there's going to be discussions like that even when Jesus crushes Russia under his left nut and there's no more Russians.

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


Thats the problem with these threads, its not a dry case of Putin waking up and deciding that Polish people are just damn fugly and have to go, it depends on whether or not Europe see's whats cooking.

Historically only Poland was aware of whats Russia about, in 1920 Russians made no secret that they're aiming to take Berlin, Paris, Madrit and London after they take Warsaw and where were the British and French reinforcements?

Western Europe has a long and proud tradition of being blind and stupid when it comes to Russia so if the West decided they can ditch Poland without loss of profit they just might.


You've got the most powerfull conventional army in Europe and who's going to nuke you?


Nope sorry, Poland was admitted to NATO mainly with US support as a "F*CK YOU!" towards Russia rather then a strategic element.


In case of war Poland can arm approximately 230.000 men with a body of 100.000 professional soldiers active or drawn from reserve.


And the French army advanced a whooping 5 miles before stopping for a year stopped dead by the vicious German trees and roadside fences!

No the West did not help Poland and yes the treaties that fortified that help were much more specific then the NATO ones.

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


Wrong, originally NATO was about defending the West, Russia was preparing to invade and take over all of Europe and thats what NATO was about, if Russian goals would be transparent enough and included subjugating only Poland then Western help is questionable at best.

Now if Russian goals would potentially include going to Berlin then yes whole of Europe would go for it, including a possible nuclear exchange.


Its not as simple as that, Europe has proven its a b*tch when it comes to particular interests, the agreements of 1939 were much more tangible then those of NATO and the West still failed to help Poland.

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]


Unlikely, Germany might help Poland since if Russia is attacking Poland that would be an indicator of international order truly collapsing but UK and France wont do much.

Germany on the other hand might prefer the fighting to be happening in Poland rather then in their own backyard so they might actually send some very substantial help but that also depends on whether Russia breaks their trading ties with Europe or not and what the Russian goals would be.


You need to rephrase this, do you think France and UK would engage in a nukefest over Poland?

News / Poland is the most friendly neighbor of Ukraine and Russia - Ukrainian poll ... [132]


There was none, they were having an excersize on how to invade Poland (Poland was dubbed as an agressor) tests of nuclear bombers and launches of missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads but no actual simulations of nuking.


Meh this is just a propaganda show coupled with actual combat testing of what junk they still have, no one in Poland cares that much and rightly so.


Its not 100% certain that you dont have them and you can develop them in approx half a year (by comparison Poland would require about 2 years).

News / Poland is the most friendly neighbor of Ukraine and Russia - Ukrainian poll ... [132]


Its true, they carried out excersizes in Kaliningrad together with Belarus, including an invasion on the Polish coast, but as long as Russia has the military spending it does the only countries its invading are Georgia and other pocket states.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]


I was but my personal experience is completely irrelevant just like yours, what matters is that i have posted quite a lot of links so no its not heresay, racism is norm for Jewish kids in Poland.


He's also a vampire.


I can bring more, its not like Israel is completely devoid of decent people and there's enough prominent Israelis who're obviously pissed at their own country completely butchering the Jewish-Polish relations, they're of course in minority but there's quite a few of them.

Love / Sending flowers to my Polish boyfriend [73]

The same as with men wearing make-up.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]


Not true, we're actively hunting Jews, just last week i've been hunting Rabbis, they were grazing on a slope peacefully and then *BAM* i shot one!

Now i got a stuffed rabbi head over my chimney!


Oh come on Sean most of us never saw a Jew in our lives (which is why i keep a stuffed rabbi).


Jonni i'm sorry i try and try but you sir are a focking little idiot, how about you have a nice cup of shut the f*ck up you little imp?

You know what a discussion is you chimpansee? You come here and i come here and we exchange points of view backed by facts (unless you're Maregea and you have no facts to back you up) you do not come to a forum to smear people just like that because you dont like what they're saying.

Joe supplied a thesis, a fully provable one because Nuremberg was indeed run by people affiliated to American Jews or being Jewish directly so either provide a counter argument or get the f*ck out you little monkey, i'm tired of reading your input amounting to "UR RACIST!!!!!!1"

Bloody retard.

Love / Sending flowers to my Polish boyfriend [73]


Flowers? To a man? Thats focked up! Send him a watch with a romantic engraving or something, dont treat him like he's some kind of a fag.


Yes it does make him less of a man, no wonder the West is so f*cked up when women forget how to wear skirts and men forget how to wear balls.


If you want to freak him out go right ahead, when my gf missed me she sent me a tie with mooses screwing each other and the other time a nice watch with a "come home quick, i love you" engraved.

Whats with you, are you so focked up that you see nothing wrong with sending men flowers? I really hope thats just forum baiting, otherwise you and your partners need to be put down with extreme prejudice for promoting things against nature.

History / Marek Edelman (1922 - 2009) [14]


Luckily he failed at his attempt at censorship, awesome as he was he was fairly misguided.

I completely agree that RM is an unpleasant little station but closing it down would be utter fascism.


Dont worry about Sjam, they're (he and Harry) our own A-Team (as in anti-Polish) :)))

The guy repeatedly accused Poles of working with Nazi Germans in WW2.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]


No? Jews murdered innocent Poles serving the Soviets, they were Jewish and they were criminal so i see nothing wrong in calling them Jewish criminals.


Yet you comment on him? Good job.


I wrote once that i hate Israel for what they're doing to Palestinians but in truth i dont think there's ever been anyone or anything i truly hated, i'm definitely bitter about the false relations between Jews and Poles where Jews show as in the worst possible light and at the same time deny any of their crimes towards Poles.

Would you like if Nazis accused Jews of being murderers of Germans? The primary difference between Jews in Eastern Poland and German Nazis was effectivness and scope, both Jews and Germans murdered Poles for the same racial reasons.


Oh if you read some politics thread you'll notice i'm dumping quite a lot on my own govt or people, criticism goes where its due but this thread is about Jews and Poles, not about home cooking or how to score on the first date, i'm simply posting on topic.

Note the disparity of positions, Maregea says "Jedwabne was a Polish crime on Jews" and i admit, i say "Jews murdered and betrayed Poles in the East" and you scream "RACIST!!!."

This kind of hysteria would get you what you want on an American forum where Jews and Israel can do no wrong but we're among thinking people here so empty demagogy will get you nowhere.

History / Marek Edelman (1922 - 2009) [14]

Actually he understood quite well.

Viva la resistance (Palestinian one) :)

On topic, Edelman was awesome.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]


Because he was with a Jewess, if you're not loving Jew, if you're pointing out their racist policies and outright lies you are:


And that is why there cannot be any compromise with the Jews, the descendants of Jewish criminals who participated in the murder of Poles will always use hysterical rhetoric claiming people who bring up Jewish crimes are demented anti-semites.

Your people Yehundi, and you are just too immersed in your own racism and prejudice to talk with.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]

French and British.