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Question of Race Hygiene in Third RP


Sasha  
14 Sep 2008 /  #31
Don't you think it's applicable to... let's say "Poles"? I mean crowd everywhere is something horrible.
pawian  
14 Sep 2008 /  #32
If you realize this, then what was this for?

It was a neutral statement that Russia has a big problem with hate crimes which not only hasn't subsided but is constantly on the rise.

And I reported the hate crime data in Russia because I decided to backfire to Constantine who, imho, shouldn't have started such a stupid thread about race purity in Poland because:

1. First of all, he is not a racist himself, so why is he pretending and lying???
2. Secondly, someone, as we have seen, might treat his stupid post seriously and we will hear about next race crime.

I can't (dis)prove mentioned figures. But I may share my observations.
I haven't seen living skinhead in Russia (Moscow) since Eltsyn's presidency in 1996

,

You are lucky not to see them.:):) But I think most Muscovites can say the same, as there are 7 or 8 million people in Moscow and your saying you have seen nobody doesn't mean much.

Unfortunately, the black or Asian students and comers from once Soviet republics who saw skinheads were less lucky - they paid with their lives.

but I've seen for several times Caucasian nationalists. I think these figures much exaggerated, also if you meant "black" by colored then I don't believe it's "technically" possible. They agress mostly Caucasians, blacks are of none problem for Russia.

Oh, I see, so the aggression towards dark skinned guys from the Caucasus region, e..g, Uzbekistan, pose no problem to you? And that is why figures of race hate crimes are exaggerated? Hey, Sasha, do you realize what you are saying...?

Russian prosecutors say they are ready to charge a group of skinhead youths with more than 20 racially motivated murders and 12 attempted murders.
Prosecutors say the nine accused, all aged 17 to 22, belonged to an illegal far-right group which sought out non-slavic looking people to attack.
The alleged victims were guest workers from Central Asia and the Caucasus.
The group was led by two students and had one female member, who is accused of videoing the attacks.
One of the group's leaders claimed during questioning to have carried out nearly 40 racially motivated murders.


kirkunity.blogspot.com/2008/07/russia-gang-faces-murder-charge.html

Can you provide me with a link to the web page where you read it (120 victims)?
I'm interested in the initial source. In other words... who counted victims.

Dear Sasha, have you got a health problem with your eyes? :):):) The link is still there where I put it in my initial post. ...

But, because I like you, I will provide a link to the Russian site of Moscow Bureau for Human Rights
antirasizm.ru/english.php

In the middle of the opening page you can read:

During January and 19 days of February, 2008, 26 attacks at least took place in the country based upon national hate, and 28 people perished due to them.
Anyway most of crimes are committed as usually in Moscow and Moscow region (18 deceased). St. Petersburg (4 deceased), Obninsk, Yekaterinburg, Togliatti, Novosibirsk, Tula (by 1 deceased) follow them.

Among the victims of attacks the following can be found: Uzbeks and Kirghizes (by 6 deceased), Tajiks (5 deceased), Turks, Azerbaijanians (2 deceased), Russians, Daghestans, Armenians. Ethnic origin of two deceased is not ascertained for the moment.


As for the "Russians" if we both imply the same, it is pretty friendly and peaceful nation.

I agree. :):):) But Russians are xenophobic and intolerant and that`s another case.....
OP ConstantineK  
14 Sep 2008 /  #33
yesterday I was on the Miklukho-Maklay street where Patrice Lumumba State University situated. Well, what can I say, it was cool! So many adorable black studs!
pawian  
14 Sep 2008 /  #34
Now you are pretending you are gay?

Come on, this is really getting insane and leading you nowhere! :):):)
Sasha  
14 Sep 2008 /  #35
1. First of all, he is not a racist himself, so why is he pretending and lying???

Because he wanted to show Polish chauvinism and he did manage to perfectly demonstrate it. :)

2. Secondly, someone, as we have seen, might treat his stupid post seriously and we will hear about next race crime.

Exactly. And this

But Russians are xenophobic and intolerant

sounds like the entry to the first crime or like an ignorance. Excuse me... maybe we have some different notions of tolerance but I would never tell that about any nations especially about Russian since I know it best and proudly belong to it. Are you Russian to say that? Oh... you're Pole... maybe that's a keyword?

You are lucky not to see them.:):)

Don't you find this situation itself funny? You the one who doesn't live in Russia convinces me of that I'm supposed to be afraid of some guys...

But I think most Muscovites can say the same, as there are 7 or 8 million people in Moscow and your saying you have seen nobody doesn t mean much.

Does "tabloid-for-you-article" (not necessarily though) mean much? Are you basing on the reality or on what's written on Bla-Bla-C.com or Putin.vru pages? My experience tells me trust your eyes and intuition.

FYI 12-15 mln.

Oh, I see, so the aggression towards dark skinned guys from the Caucasus region, e..g, Uzbekistan, pose no problem to you? And that is why figures of race hate crimes are exagggerated? Hey, Sasha, do you realise what you are saying...?

I do. As well as I do realize that you a priori want to see skinhead in me and in every Russian. :) Some problems can be only solved first in one's mind I believe.

I merely put you in the picture of who are the purposes of aggression, I also told you that I had seen caucasian nationalists and yes many caucasians cause problems since they're with other migrants responsible for 80% committed in Moscow and that's the thing I'm really afraid of even though I'm not a whipping boy because the overall victims of their crimes are counted with 1000s.

I'm ok with caucasians I'm not ok with criminals and Russophobes... ;)

But, because I like you

Yeah... like wolves like lambs. My bad... I didn't read it carefully. SOVA center.. now it's clear. :)
pawian  
14 Sep 2008 /  #36
Because he wanted to show Polish chauvinism and he did manage to perfectly demonstrate it. :)

The only thing he demonstrated was the mixture of views which takes place in a democratic country. His post was answered by racists as well as tolerant people. The ones who don`t care didn`t take part.

sounds like the entry to the first crime or like an ignorance. Excuse me... maybe we have some different notions of tolerance but I would never tell that about any nations especially about Russian since I know it best and proudly belong to it. Are you Russian to say that? Oh... you're Pole... maybe that's a keyword?

Dear Sasha, when I read about 120 race murders in Russia in 2007, what do you think I can think and say??? The murderers are not Martians, they are Russian. The have been born to the Russian society and brought up in it. They acquired their views on life from their families, school and friends. The fact that they decided to murder means they were more adventurous than other Russians who think the same but are afraid to take drastic actions.....

FYI 12-15 mln.

I was talking about the city only, not the whole metropolis with neighboring towns and villages.

I do. As well as I do realize that you a priori want to see skinhead in me and in every Russian. :)

:):):) Nope. That`s a wrong supposition....

I merely put you in the picture of who are the purposes of aggression, I also told you that I had seen Caucasian nationalists and yes many Caucasians cause problems since they're with other migrants responsible for 80% committed in Moscow and that's the thing I'm really afraid of even though I'm not a whipping boy because the overall victims of their crimes are counted with 1000s.

Crime by Caucasians is some explanation for Russian xenophobia.... I can understand it....

I'm ok with Caucasians I'm not ok with criminals and Russophobes... ;)

Neither am I. I hate Russophobes! Really.... :):):)

Yeah... like wolves like lambs. My bad... I didn't read it carefully. SOVA center.. now it's clear. :)

Hmm, you seem to sound ironic about SOVA center. Why??? :):)

SOVA Center is a human rights nongovernmental organization and analytical center that conducts sociological research on development of nationalism and racism in modern Russia. It produces regular reports on hate crimes and develops recommendations that are widely used and cited by OSCE, Amnesty International and other human rights and political organizations. [1] [2][3][4][5][6] [7][8][9][10]. It also monitors the situation with freedom of religion in Russia. SOVA Center was established in 2002 by Moscow Helsinki Group and Russian research center "Panorama".
OP ConstantineK  
14 Sep 2008 /  #37
BTW, sex with skinheads is a real fetish among gay community. (sorry me Sasha, I know you don't like these stupid idle-talks about gays, but I cannot keep from it).

And back to the thread. Of course Poles are the most racist nation, because they always stress the superiority of their culture over Russian. It hurts us inhumanly, because we know it is not true; really it is Russian culture prevails over Polish!
pawian  
14 Sep 2008 /  #38
BTW, sex with skinheads is a real fetish among gay community. (sorry me Sasha, I know you don't like these stupid idle-talks about gays, but I cannot keep from it).

The fact that you can`t keep from it may suggest you have hidden homosexual inclinations..... But don`t worry, I am tolerant.... :):):)

And back to the thread. Of course Poles are the most racist nation, because they always stress the superiority of their culture over Russian. It hurts us inhumanly, because we know it is not true; really it is Russian culture prevails over Polish!

Neither culture prevails, both are interesting. :):):)

As for Poles stressing their cultural superiority, it is the effect of Russian domination in Poland during 19 and 20 century. The domination which was achieved not by cultural superiority (like ancient Romans over barbarian Brits) but by sheer superiority of numbers (like ancient Romans over ancient Greeks).
Dekameron  
14 Sep 2008 /  #39
And back to the thread. Of course Poles are the most racist nation, because they always stress the superiority of their culture over Russian. It hurts us inhumanly, because we know it is not true; really it is Russian culture prevails over Polish!

Of course we could go over it indepth, polish culture has approximately 1000 years of tradition whereas russian culture in an organized traditional way is at least 500 years younger.

By the time Poland was a seat of arts and literature Moscow was still a relatively unknown city, then there's the fact that Poland has always been a land open to other cultures benefitting from various influences whereas Russia has been chauvinistic in its insular approach to panslavic idea.

So yes i believe that polish heritage is superior though it makes Russia by no means backwater, large reason for the superiority of polish culture is the heavy indoctrination of the russian people.
noimmigration  
14 Sep 2008 /  #40
When I wes at college before university, they ran a class called english for speakers of other languages. The students were usually thriw world immigrants and asylum seekers and I can honestly tell you that when my class used the room after them, we had to open the windows. It smelled awful .
David_18  
14 Sep 2008 /  #41
It's quite sad to see lost russians fight in a polish forum and spreading propaganda. You belive yourself to be smart and having fun playing some sort of psychiatrists, but in reality you just make a fool out of yourselfs and give a negativ signal about russian people by the way you act.
pawian  
14 Sep 2008 /  #42
When I wes at college before university, they ran a class called english for speakers of other languages. The students were usually thriw world immigrants and asylum seekers and I can honestly tell you that when my class used the room after them, we had to open the windows. It smelled awful .

It was the fault of Scottish academic teachers who economized on taking a shower. Saving their pennies....
So simple.....
Crow  
14 Sep 2008 /  #43
Hitler for sure ``was so anti-Semitic`` that on the end of his story, killed himself and that way eliminated biggest Semitic
Seanus  
14 Sep 2008 /  #44
And Krakowian academics? They have the same rep ;)
pawian  
14 Sep 2008 /  #45
:):):)

Do you know any personally? Did you have to air the room after them? :):):)
OP ConstantineK  
15 Sep 2008 /  #46
The fact that you can`t keep from it may suggest you have hidden homosexual inclinations..... But don`t worry, I am tolerant.... :):):)

Huh, well may be.....

So yes i believe that polish heritage is superior though it makes Russia by no means backwater, large reason for the superiority of polish culture is the heavy indoctrination of the russian people.

He-he see the heading of the thread...suppose I am right!

negativ signal about russian people by the way you act

Could I ask you, where do you think I gave this signal?

When I wes at college before university, they ran a class called english for speakers of other languages. The students were usually thriw world immigrants and asylum seekers and I can honestly tell you that when my class used the room after them, we had to open the windows.

Of course, I know what do you mean. The smell of burned flesh is so awfull! Of course you had needed some fresh air.....
pawian  
15 Sep 2008 /  #47
David_18:
negativ signal about russian people by the way you act

Could I ask you, where do you think I gave this signal?

You give a negative signal when you start a stupid thread. A reasonable person doesn`t do such things. Then, when the topic moved from Poland to Russia and her problems with race hate crime, you happily continue the discussion, trying to attribute rascism to Polish participants.

It is pure masochism, I must say, and a very negative signal about a poster.

I am so sorry but it it`s high time to realise certain things, Kostia.... :):):)
Sasha  
15 Sep 2008 /  #48
His post was answered by racists

That's enough and to spare. He succeeded.

when I read about 120 race murders in Russia in 2007, what do you think I can think and say??? The murderers are not Martians, they are Russian.

You might have been doubtful for one thing. What lies at the root of your belief? There're plenty other points of view but you picked exactly this one. Why so selective? How do you know that the murderers were Russians?

They acquired their views on life from their families, school and friends.

I'm afraid I can't agree. First and foremost they fot their knowledge from the reality, from the street, secondly from the organizations which in fact have nothing to do with fascism or racism or something like that are paid... Think we need to dwell for a while on the last ones. I presume that some organizations intentionally use youth to study their own interests; their purpose is to overblow things to make up a problem at the drop of a hat. I suspect some even kill migrants themselves; and it's important to note that they're not skinhead or something they're killers. Idea of racial superiority and stuff like that is only used to attract teens.

I was talking about the city only, not the whole metropolis with neighboring towns and villages.

So was I. The info you came up with is about 10 years old I guess.

Hmm, you seem to sound ironic about SOVA center. Why??? :):)
SOVA Center is a human rights nongovernmental organization and analytical center that conducts sociological research on development of nationalism and racism in modern Russia. It produces regular reports on hate crimes and develops recommendations that are widely used and cited by OSCE, Amnesty International and other human rights and political organizations. [1] [2][3][4][5][6] [7][8][9][10]. It also monitors the situation with freedom of religion in Russia. SOVA Center was established in 2002 by Moscow Helsinki Group and Russian research center "Panorama".

mhg.ru/english/184F451

I know one of them pretty well. Btw he's the only honest true liberal I know who has set a pace for my liberal views for a rather long period and to a large extent determined my political preferences which I can't say about many other its members. But it's another story...

I happened to see what MHG and SOVA center was from within. "Nongovernmental" is not that precise word... it's governmental.. better to say it's non-Russian. Apart from their really good deeds they have to do some "dirty work", otherwise they wouldn't be paid (read "wouldn't exist"). Compilation of such reports is kind of that work. Their logic is simple: if Caucasian were killed then it's likely to be "skinhead" and.... here we go... 120 victims.

P.S. Do you really believe that there were no racially-caused killings in Warsaw at any year? Why? The recent game of Legia and FC Moskwa showed you might be wrong.

UPD:

It's quite sad to see lost Russians fight in a polish forum and spreading propaganda. You believe yourself to be smart and having fun playing some sort of psychiatrists, but in reality you just make a fool out of yourselfs and give a negative signal about Russian people by the way you act.

Which propaganda? :) Who do you mean? How do you distinguish propaganda from reality? What you like is the true and what you dislike is propaganda?

Think you're doing fine without any signal, mate... :)
pawian  
16 Sep 2008 /  #49
That's enough and to spare. He succeeded.

Quite doubtful. Receiving mixed, democratic feedback you call a success???

Strange. Sorry Sasha, but I don`t understand those Russian games you are playing here... :):):) Russian soul is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. :):):)

You might have been doubtful for one thing. What lies at the root of your belief? There're plenty other points of view but you picked exactly this one. Why so selective? How do you know that the murderers were Russians?

Hey, are you going to argue that they were not Russians who killed Uzbeks and Tajiks???

I'm afraid I can't agree. First and foremost they fot their knowledge from the reality, from the street, secondly from the organizations which in fact have nothing to do with fascism or racism or something like that are paid... Think we need to dwell for a while on the last ones. I presume that some organizations intentionally use youth to study their own interests; their purpose is to overblow things to make up a problem at the drop of a hat. I suspect some even kill migrants themselves; and it's important to note that they're not skinhead or something they're killers. Idea of racial superiority and stuff like that is only used to attract teens.

It doesn`t matter if the organizations are Neo Nazi or not. If a young person is so easily influenced by them that he commits a crime, it means his family, school, whole background didn`t manage to shape his character positively and to make him a decent man who sticks to his reasonable views..

So was I. The info you came up with is about 10 years old I guess.

Probably. Sorry. The last time I was in Moscow was in 1970s... It must have changed since that :):):)

I happened to see what MHG and SOVA center was from within. "Nongovernmental" is not that precise word... it's governmental.. better to say it's non-Russian. Apart from their really good deeds they have to do some "dirty work", otherwise they wouldn't be paid (read "wouldn't exist"). Compilation of such reports is kind of that work. Their logic is simple: if caucasian were killed then it's likely to be "skinhead" and.... here we go... 120 victims.

By dirty work you mean reporting true facts about Russia???
I know that Putin has banned some NGOs from Russia and limited others. For obvious reasons - nobody will look at his hands...

P.S. Do you really believe that there were no racially-caused killings in Warsaw at any year? Why? The recent game of Legija and FC Moskva showed you might be wrong.

There weren`t any murders I have heard of. Some brawls and fights, yes. But not murders.

[/quote]
joepilsudski  
17 Sep 2008 /  #50
Certainly, the purity of Polish nation is a most urgent question of the modernity. But by what means the government should execute policy of race purity and unity within borders of RP? Should it use naturalization as a main tool or some other more radical forms of inner policy of racial purification?

Ah, yes, racial purity and 'race hygiene'!...A possible solution: DNA testing and sampling of all Polish citizens; DNA specimens containing 'mongrel' genetic characteristics can be extracted from sample 'specimens' before nation-wide testing, and then comparisons can be made between 'pure' Polish genetic traits, and 'mongrelized' genetic materials...Then, 'mongrelized Poles' or simply 'mongrels' that live in Poland can be rounded up, isolated (perhaps the Aushwitz facility could be used initially as an 'isolation' camp) and then assigned to certain 'work brigades' or, if this isn't succesful, their can be a mass-program of 'hygienic injections' to eliminate the disfunctional mongrels..This would lead to a 'clean and pure' Polish racial situation...Perhaps EU funding can be obtained for such purposes, or perhaps the Israelis or certain German technicians can be brought in as 'contractors'...In fact, the elimination of 'mongrels' and their resulting pollution of the environment might lead to a 'Greener Poland'...Many elite foundations could be interested in this...Perhaps the 'Bill & Melissa Gates Foundation'...Sound like a plan?
MrBubbles  
17 Sep 2008 /  #51
Being trapped between hugely mongolized half-blooded nations of the East and ill-minded partially arabic Western Europe, Poland was able to save her pure Slavic blood ... ?

So why should I care what some Mongolised Russian thinks?
celinski  
17 Sep 2008 /  #52
Of course Poles are the most racist nation, because they always stress the superiority of their culture over Russian. It hurts us inhumanly, because we know it is not true; really it is Russian culture prevails over Polish!

You do understand you just showed who is the racist? "really it is Russian culture prevails over Polish!"

DNA testing and sampling of all Polish citizens; DNA specimens containing 'mongrel' genetic characteristics can be extracted from sample 'specimens' before nation-wide testing, and then comparisons can be made between 'pure' Polish genetic traits, and 'mongrelized' genetic materials...

You are kidding, right?
Sasha  
17 Sep 2008 /  #53
Quite doubtful. Receiving mixed, democratic feedback you call a success???

Democratic? Seems like you don't feel the verge where democracy ends and chauvinism begins. That's weird indeed. But surely in democratic society any skinhead should have a right to speak out... and to be imprisoned afterwards.

Actually only one chauvinist woken up is enough to call that a success.

Strange. Sorry Sasha, but I don`t understand those Russian games you are playing here...

You're really not supposed to feel sorry... at least about Russians. I thought I talked to you. "You're" was plural or singular? Just wonder... anyway either it was only me or Costia and me I can't figure out what you meant by "games".

Russian soul is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.

Just like any other people of different nation. If we're still riddle for you (in comparison to other nation) that could mean you didn't know us well enough or you just wanted to see us as an enigma. I don't know about you, but I usually try to cognize other's cultures.

Hey, are you going to argue that they were not Russians who killed Uzbeks and Tajiks???

Hey, are you going to submit they were Russians? Did you stay nearby when they killed?
I was just reasoning and tried to lead you to the thought things were more complicated... And yeap, it's quite possible they were not Russians. I can't assert anything since I don't own sufficiently realiable information.

By dirty work you mean reporting true facts about Russia???

Well... in this case you might want to talk to Kostia. It's not a serious of you. In the piece of text you cited I had stated that the information Sova had been picking was interpreted by the way they wanted. For example... there's some information about caucasians killed. It's completely up to SOVA how to further represent that news. They never know for sure whether that was racial murder or an "everyday" event (robbery etc.) Of course law-enforcement authorities don't share any information in the interest of a case.

So why do you blindly believe it was true? Is it kinda Polish games or a strong will to see things worse?

For obvious reasons - nobody will look at his hands...

Yet you read SOVA and think they write the truth. :) Thus you're looking at his hands... One will always find things to believe in... at any political regime.

There weren`t any murders I have heard of.

Following your wry logic I may say " Warsaw is big. You have heard nobody doesn't mean much". That might mean your media was not as democratic as ours.

Seriosuly I don't believe that... Don't have time to nitpick and look for SOVA-like media in your country.
joepilsudski  
17 Sep 2008 /  #54
You are kidding, right?

Yes, I am being sarcastic about a very sick notion: this 'racial hygeine'...This is a concept that is devilish in nature, and is reminiscent of the worst Nazi insanity...And, ironically enough, the Israelis have similiar notions...But, and this is serious now, the DNA techniques I mentioned are supported by certain sections of the American security apparatus as a way of keeping track of US citizens and pin-pointing 'undesirables'.
OP ConstantineK  
19 Sep 2008 /  #55
Certainly we shouldn't use any expensive DNA technologies. I propose to restrict our investigations only by cheap methods, by simple measuring of Polish skulls. Than we'll be able to work with full output. Have passed the exam - welcome to high race of masters, failed - in the furnace. Everything is simple and there is no any problems. Passed - Failed - Next !
joepilsudski  
19 Sep 2008 /  #56
And to you, ConstatineK, Iwould propose turning over the question of Russian 'race hygeine' to the Israelis, the Georgians and the Khazars, if you wish to travel that road, which leads to a dead end.
OP ConstantineK  
19 Sep 2008 /  #57
No way! Because it is Poles, who always say again and again about their preserved genetical slavic purity. If they said 'A', they should say 'B' and build concentration camps, and provide their society with racial law enforcement.
Sasha  
19 Sep 2008 /  #58
Kostia, don't you think we have enough jerks here in Russia who proclaim they're supperior, peculiar and some like that? I don't think it's something that's especially typical for Poles... you merely see it better against the background of tough Rus-Pol relationships.
pawian  
19 Sep 2008 /  #59
way! Because it is Poles, who always say again and again about their preserved genetical slavic purity.

A silly generalization. How many Poles did you question about it? All 38 million?

It is so cheap, Kostia, what you are doing here. I am really disappointed with you....:(:(:(
celinski  
19 Sep 2008 /  #60
sections of the American security apparatus as a way of keeping track of US citizens and pin-pointing 'undesirables'.

There goes the neighborhood. lol

If they said 'A', they should say 'B' and build concentration camps, and provide their society with racial law enforcement.

Kostia, I like that name. But I must say, shhhhh Polish do not want "racial law enforcement" and never built concentration camps.

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