Soviet war monuments in Poland - what to do about them?

EU's actions have been ones of support, its russia's behaviour here that has been like a bully!

But, daffy looks pretty logic to me that Russian pressure on Estonia could represent just bait- you know Putin`s methods (no matter what we think about them or, we can even speak about USA/EU/NATO terrifying methods).

Maybe, Russia want to send message that sovereignty represent universal principle and that Serbia also has right to survive as sovereign country or that Russia has right on sovereignty, etc. Hire, and Estonia and Serbia represent just puppets in game of great powers. It`s not form of support which Serbs expect but, what can we do.

Same way how Estonia getting support from some countries, I expect to see that Serbia get support for her sovereignty. What does it matter who are in EU/NATO. Freedom, independence and sovereignty are universal principles. If EU/NATO blackmail Serbia, in order to force Serbia to become member of those organizations just because Serbs hold strategic region of Western Balkan (important to finally push Russian presents from warm sees), I say- `to hell with EU/NATO, they are monsters if they can’t understand that we can’t support them in their drang nach osten. We can’t, we are responsible last bearers of honest Sarmatian name.`

And, let all Catholic and Protestans Serbs who were scattered already, from Baltik to Balkan, know that they won’t feel shame because of us- Balkan Orthodox Serbs. It is nice to live and died as Serbs and Slavs.

Long live sovereignty!

If EU/NATO/USA wants to restore respect on them they need to return what they taken from Serbs, on one great international conference. That include- restoration of Serb Krajina under Croatian occupation, freedom for Serb Republic in Bosnia which is forced to exist in society with mujaheedines who coming to settle from Arabia, and Kosovo-Metohija must stay integral part of Serbia.

And, of course, we would demand chance for independence of Lusatia. Let people decide on plebiscite about their own future because Lusatian Serbs are native population on their own ground.

Otherwise, Slavic OTPOR is inevitable. Same broom which sweeped Milosevic would sweept those who humiliates Slavs.

Again Crow your statements see have a reversed sense of what is happening. Let you and i leave it for this topic regarding Serbia as its about PL/ES which you have already agreed has had every right to do what it did with the monuments.

any further serbia talk - you know by now where we are to go :)

Yes, we agree I know. We want to see different methods for people of this world.

We need universal principles, not double standards. So that Christmas can be real Christmas.

Thanks daffy man- son of Irish tree. Regards from Crow of Scordiscs.

Russian is russian. Soviet is another thing. Out monuments from Poland.

I read in the newspaper today that the Polish president plans on removing all public statues & signs reminding of Soviets & Nazis in the coming year. Said Poles can do whatever they want & they don't want Russia to intervene. On the same day that Putin unleashes against Estonia for removing them & to the USA.

First, I love this statues and I think they are fascinating. For me as a tourist, they really brighten up a holiday.

Second, I agreed with grzegorsz's response earlier.

Third, Crow, The EU is a far more powerful union than a slavic alliance ever could be, militarily, economically, whatever. Besides a slavic alliance would be a mere subset.

Fourth, we had all of these things in Ireland years ago and we found ways around them.
For example, in Poland there was the holocaust, in Ireland there was the Famine (which resulted in a proportionally larger percentage of our death and migration of our population)

We also learned how to topple imperial statues without leaving much room for discussion

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson%27s_Pillar

Amen!!


I can't see a Slavic Union emerging sometime near Crow, sorry. It would definitely be great though.

Lithuania,Latvia and Estonia this are Balts
Poland,Slovakia,Czech,Serbia,Slovenia,Croatia,Bosna,Bulgaria,Ukraina,B elearus,Moldova,Russia are Slavs

Back to the topic :

Estonia is independent country and thay can do whatever thay won't, but thay shoud give respect to death people and to the filings of 1/3 of their population. In my opinion removing of that monument wasn't smomethink wrong

coud you imagine that at the main plac of Warsaw will be monument of Stalin or Hitler ??
the same in Paris for example SS-Soldier monument.

History is always written by the winners, and in that situation Estland is winner because thay resign after long time and thay can do what thay want with ocupant mouuments.

due to SS-Estland Batalion thay want fight for their survive and thay can by alians only of German because thay have no other choice.

Maybe not to the and but many russian people live thre isn't true ??

We have a saying (in Russia), that Russia has no friend exept army, fleet and Serbs!


No it's not true. They live is Transistria, but historicaly it is not Moldavia!

ok you know better. and i know som russian people thay are ok , you always have some bad govermant... thats all

and during communism time many russian also die at siberia example when thay build transiberian railly.... true??

Could I say something as an (ex-oppresor) Russian? ;-)))

Unfortunately for EU, the bigger it become the more friable his body and more stretched out its communications! One day somebody (not Russia) will kick it and it will be destroyed :-(((

You think that old Europe burns with the desire to fight for it's East? Remember "The Strange War" on the eve of WWII!


No no, we just only whant Putin on all 80%!!!! Putin is an exelent choise for us! And I am really sorrow that this is only 8 years!!! ;-)))


Do you really know his nature? Do you communicate with him personally? Or its only a unfounded private opinion ?


Hemmm.... but i thought that during Nazi ocupation the polish population decreased whereas during Soviet, ok, ocupation too, it shooted up and Poland was formally independent state with all attributes including place in UN, discrepancy?!!!

Grzegorz, I agree with you 100%! Great post. I share the same sentiments with you on this topic and you are right on everything. Estonia is a sovereign nation, let them do what they please. Let us all be free from the horrible Russian influence.

Russia needs to be further broken down by the self-determination of even more nations to weaken the Russian core and surround Moscow by even more nations. These nations will start to resent Russia if Russia pushes them too, eventually leading to a mass of nations against Russia which will put a lot of political pressure on them to change policy.

Hi could you let me know the names of any war memorials in eastern Europe so I can research them?
Im working on the design for one in Ireland at the minute and all inspiration is welcome!
Thanks

Everyone should go ahead and get rid of all monuments that boast of Soviet occupation. Let Russia have a hissy fit. They'll get over it......eventually.

Hah, Russians would be OK... and, they would be hire in time of our need. I’m sure it’s just that pressure from false West on them and, that transition. They are a little nervous these days.

Relax sisters and brothers!

What we need right now is one good party with gallons of slivovica and orange juice, eventually.

Girl of White Garden, give me that drink that you promised to me and sing, sing for me and let’s dance…

Calm Down...

It`s the poetry, man


A, da. Yes, yes...I going

Id be more inclined to accept the local peopls wishes. To them it may be a sign of harder times, oppression etc and ultimatley their decision. not the EU's or Russia's.

Yeah Daff, I wuz bein' facetious! Sometimes the Russian govt's attitude just burns me, that's all! :)

i got it, i was agreeing with you. Estonia is independant. Can do what it wished to the monuments

May 8, 2007
This from poland.pl/news/article,Polish_monuments_are_a_Polish_matter_says_PM,id ,274088.htm

'No one has the right to interfere in Poland's decisions how to name streets and what monuments can be seen in the cities', Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski has said.

This is an internal affair of any country, the premier observed as Moscow voiced its criticism and concern over plans to remove Soviet-era monuments from Poland's landscape.

The article says there are about 2K communist era monuments in Poland. (Wow, that will be a big job to remove all those. What to do with them? Sell them on Ebay! Give money to charity. I think Russia can buy them back. Or trade for fuel. I'm being silly, here, ok?)

And I am wondering, what about all those old checkpoint markers you see on maps of Poland. Why are they still there? Would that not be an eye sore?

Who is going to buy the Palace of Science & Culture in Warsaw? Get rid of the offices, close down Ground Zero and voila, thousands of desirable down town apartments. I thnk I know the man for the job.......

Crow, THEY (Russians) are the cruel people.

I understand that since you are Slavic and Orthodox AND (most important thing) you live far away from Russians, it is easy to have a positive opinion about Russians - but this positive opinion is totally wrong, Russians are generally hated by their neighbours, by the nations that actually know what kind of nation Russians are.


To your information: it was Germany that is the traditional ally of Russia in attacks vs Poland.


Really? But Russia already did make lots of "agressive steps" against Poland - during the partitions, during the 1920 Polish-Soviet war, during WWII - so why do Serbs still call Russians brothers? Why would Serbian reaction be different this time?


Problem is that you use the word "Slavic" all the time, but you obviously have no idea about deep cultural differences between different Slavic nations like for example Poles and Russians - it's not just a matter of negative feeelings, there are huge huge cultural differences - and the differences were there long, long before communism, they started during the Mongol occupation of Russia and the rise of the Principality of Moscow, the Mongol-collaborator state, as the dominant Russian principality, which have created the subsequent Russian political culture.

Actually, the truth might fit the "Slavic" theories somewhat, because basically what did happen was that the (non-Slavic, obviously) Mongol rule changed Russia's political culture from European (Slavic) to a post-Asiatic "slave mentality".

M.

Yeah... You are right!!! We are exactly such, but can I add some more spetialities?

....Also, usually we like to eat human meat and make our communion by the blood of Innocents!!!

Servilely Yours Mongolo-Scandinavian-Bysantinian barbarian Constantine ;-))))

The concept of Crow's free slavic world is exciting.A world full of free polish,czech,slovak,russian,belarus,serbian and ukrainian girls.I would enter this world in no time.

I also believe Slavs should keep their tradition,mentality and attitude which is different than in the West.

Dreams, dreams....may be it will be better to put all of us in one concentration camp....and exterminate all by gas? I think that it will be nice solution of East problem!!!

Poles need a "lebensraum"!!?

The West is annoyed because russian economy has improved and they are anxious it might have a negative impact on neighbour states like CR and Poland.For example the wages now in Moscow are over 800$ per month which is the average level for Poland and the unemployment in Moscow is 2% while in Poland it is 15% despite the immigration.This does not make the EU happy especially since political situation in central,eastern Europe countries is unstable contrary to the stability Putin has imposed.

Everybody expects the oil price to sink and Russia's power to decline.

Correct me If I am wrong but the official unemployment rate in Russia is around 15% so a comparison between Moscow and Poland is not a valid one. What is the unemployment rate in Warsaw?

As ever, unemployment rates do not reflect people working in the 'black economy'.

The official unemployment in Russia as a whole stands at 7.2% significantly lower than in Poland as a whole.(15%).If Poland which belongs to EU(stricter reguations) has extended black economy,imagine what happens in Russia.I mean incomes due to black economy in Russia have to be in larger percentage than in Poland cause in Russia illegal behaviour and corruption exceed probably the polish one.(by international estimations Russia is one of the leading states in corruption).

I compare Poland to Moscow because Moscow has 10.5 million population and is the point of reference.What happens there matters more than what happens in the rest of Russia,it sets the terms.Russia has different structure than usual european countries and so capital situation is really very important.For example these are the wages a russian hopes to earn when he immigrates to Moscow.The difference between Warsaw-rest of Poland is not that big and Warsaw is much smaller proportionately to the whole population than Moscow.

The unemployment rate in Warsaw is 5%.