9th November 1989: And the wall came tumbling down

The regime collapsed because Gorbachev,Yeltsin and local communist bosses came to an agreement with the West that we would keep their positions and get money by selling what was to be sold of soviet union property.

The old stalinist generation had become too old to control them anymore.(Gorbachev told later how much he was afraid of the old legionnaires and waited till their death or physical incompetence to pass some measures).

To freedom of course! (you Poles love freedom so much...contrary to the well behaved Ossis, right?)


Ossis tried to flee from wherever they could, the whole eastern bloc had a border for Ossis, which guards had the order to shoot at refugees. Many were killed even outside of Germany. Shot down from the sky, out from tunnels, drowned in the sea...name it, they did it.

...and so on! Quite "well behaved". Why do you think the GDR decided to build the wall in the first place? For tourism????


Poles never traveled to other countries?


Give me the total...I'm very interested, really!

And please don't give me Siberia...Poland was an ally of Russia, Germany was an enemy, occupational zone, spoil of war...wanna bet who had more people in Siberia as prisoners???

There were so many who cooperated with the commies that it is ridiculous to talk about resistance.I recently saw formerly members of stasi proudly parading in Berlin regarding themselves as protectors of justice in DDR.

Oh go play with Crow when grown ups talk...what does a Greek know about all this.

There was an interesting interview with Gorbachev on CBC.
cbc.ca/video/#/News/World/Berlin_Wall_Anniversary/ID=1321537609

It almost seems like a revisionist way of looking at things. And he has a little chuckle when he mentions New World Order.

BBoy, we both know (I hope I'm speaking for both) that a statement like that is pretty much bulls.hit.

Russians and Germans attacked Poland. Does that make Poland Russia's ally? Poland was raped, much like their former allies Germans, by the Russians. Does that make Poland Russia's ally?

Never in its history was Poland Russia's ally. Unless you consider an occupied territory an allied country. Germans, on the other hand, have a richer history of co-operation with Russians. Unfortunately, on a few occasions that co-operation was directed against Poland.

There were 500000 stasi informants in DDR,some even estimate 2 million.(one spy per 6.5 citizens when part-time informer adults were included).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi

What? Another case of "dishing out but can't take it"?

Just bringing some facts to your narrative. There was no wall needed to keep the "resisting" Poles well behaved and down, right?

What facts?
Partitions of Poland?
Ribbentrop Molotov?
Extermination of the Polish nation planned by the NKVD and Gestapo?

Are these the examples of the Polish co-operation with Russians?

There is an odd interpretation here and there when history is debated, but you are outdoing even yourself.

Yeah...now we leaving the topic, that's a fact!
But now wonder that even at such a date the whining goes on...

As far as I remember Poland was a member of the Warsaw Pact, was it not? Who did sit in the polish Panzers?
Wait...that must have been these miraculous Martians again who are responsible for all shameful things Poles and Poland ever did...yes, that must be it! Those mean un-polish Martians!

So let's get back to it.
Your president thanked Poles and Walesa.

Happy celebrations.

Oh **** off
I will gladly acknowledge the Gorbi part in this, even the US part without their support not much would had developed at all but Poland or the Vatican..oh pleeeaaaase!

Our president is much to generous...probably not wanting to spoil the day knowing how easily miffed Poles can become if they don't get some attention.

you're welcome.


Former Polish leader Lech Walesa, whose pro-democracy movement Solidarity played a key role in ending communism in Eastern Europe, is to tip the first domino as the artistic display comes tumbling down.

nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10608109&ref=rss

As I said...
news.yahoo/s/ap/eu_germany_wall_anniversary


It's probably just much more catchier than "Walli, Walli"....

Germans are masters of universe in creating myths.
And they are successful!
You know why ?
They believe it.
They don't need to lie.

I'll give you just 3 examples:

-Prussians contribution decided about outcome of the Waterloo Battle
-German anti-Nazi underground
-German destroyed communism crying "Wir sind das Volk!' few days before fall of the wall in Berlin.

I'm sick of it.
Sorry.

Western Germany paid considerable amounts of money to the commies everywhere to achieve the desired result.
They had offered billions of marks in the 70's as well to achieve the reunification but SU had declined kindly the offer.

Germany is one of leading EU countries.

no further comment

If so then we learned from the best! ;)


Polish cavalry saved Europe from the Turkes (alone of course! No coalition needed at all.)


a) The Poles were the most determined Jew-saver of all during the war!
b) Without the Poles the allies would had never won against the Germans!


The Poles destroyed the russian commie empire all by themselves.
Perestroika is actually a polish invention!

If that isn't sad.

So East Germans have nobody of their own to credit for leading them to freedom. No mass movement working against working against the communism. See, Poles do, and when Germans were finally given permission to be free they found some sledge hammers and started banging the wall - over 4 months after Poland had already elected their first free government after WW2.

And that, dear BBoy, is the main difference between what happened in Poland and East Germany. Poland was a virtual symbol f relentless struggle against communism, while East Germans relentlessly worked for STASI. One in seven of them, I hear.

Why? It's what's most Germans believe anyhow...

Poland was a virtual symbol f relentless struggle against communism, while East Germans relentlessly worked for STASI.

*Yawn*...you weren't especially successful then all these decades before, weren't you!
Even helping to supress other peoples struggles as a nice member of the Warsaw Pact..without your gov needing a wall against you at all because they could so trust in you, right?


And still you always forget to thank Gorbi for that...why is that I wonder!

Man, Darius! You are truly embarrassing.
Why do you have such problems to accept the real polish life during all these years? We Ossis have no problems with this...Did you ever heard about the Gauck-Behörde? Poland never had such a thing...

dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1480985,00.html


Reading your tales about an always resisting anti-commi Poland shows it's about time. Poland was just another soviet-style society...you were in the Warsaw pact too, your army and secret service helped surpass freedom fights, your people was drowned in informers too, your commie party had you in their grip too (even without having to fear that you would run away)...get used to it.

Nothing better, nothing worse! Stop pretending you were some shining light of freedom...not for Ossis anyhow...


...all un-polish Martians probably! ;)

Interesting blog about you "resisters":


polishcollaborators.blogspot.com/2007/05/how-to-read-polish-secret-police.html


Why is that? It seems that is only good for myth-making as shown by z-darius.
A people who isn't told about their compliance and collaboration may truly believe they are a people of "resisters"...

Well, I was stationed in Germany in the early 90's. All these vendors around base were selling pieces of the supposed 'Wall.' Amazingly, chuckleheads bought these little hunks of spray painted concrete for $5, $10 bucks. Hilarious. Probably came from some construction site in Frankfurt.

let's see:

98,000 in a country of then 36 million makes it 1 in 367.
A whole lot less than 1 in 7 for GDR, eh?

And you tried to tell us about countless Russians as the reason for inaction in GDR.
Well, there were more STASI collaborators than Soviet troops in GDR.

I know you're kinda pis.sed off. I hear that after all that unification still isn't going very smoothly and the wall is still very much alive, even if the brick work has been demolished. I guess it'll take a generation of two before things even out between you and your Western brethren.

Good luck.

It get's worse!
The most favourite souvenir are besides some stone pieces are the military hats of the eastern german guards...they sold more of them till now as the whole GDR ever had soldiers!


Well...it's a unique thing actually! I wonder how the Poles would had coped with such a task?
But yes, whereas the re-unification is no topic anymore with the young generation, some older ones still bear grudges or mourn...but then there are still oldies around who miss the third Reich...they just won't die! ;)

I'm actually still not sure why you want to **** Ossis off? Didn't you get attention enough?
What is your problem actually?

But seriously, it seems Poland does not alot to really get all the painful and dirty stuff out to research and talk openly and honestly about it. You had barely any soviet troops on your soil but still you were a trusted, obedient member of the Warsaw Pact for decades. I don't think you have any reason to somehow "mock" the Ossis...for being an occupied country which needed to build a wall to keep the people in.

Why are you doing that? Is that a polish thing??? I'm actually at a loss here.

I know it must be easier to blame an outward enemy for all warts, but it isn't the true, the good way. No guts? It will back fire some day...

We here in Germany do alot of "navel searching", sometimes to much of it I think. But here everybody can know about his spies and informers...it's all out in the open!

Apropos for your opinion the Vatican had been a big help:
voanews.com/english/archive/2007-01/2007-01-12-voa47.cfm?moddate=2007-01-12


Stuff like this happens when you don't teach the truth...myth becomes history!

That's a clever racket..Oh yeah, I can see some Yank handing over some bucks for that. Ends up being a bus driver's hat or something.

Oh I get it...you are truly miffed! Yes?

A polish journo writes:


Is it this???

Hm, I remember being that nigh (I think it was a Thursday or Friday night) with Friends who lived pretty far away and we were drinking beer while watching the events on TV. Can't really remember what I thought back then, but one of the things I remember quite clearly was that I though when seeing those Eastern Germans standing on "Die Mauer" was: "gee, what a bad taste in clothing they have". Don't know why I thought that as I was clearly aware of the importance of things unfolding on tv, but I somehow remember thinking that. Maybe I was just a bit drunk back then :)

I also remember those images of a long line of Trabant-cars waiting for the Hungarian-Austrian border, which was open for a while in the summer of 1989. I was a bit annoyed by that back then. Why? Because it seemed that Eastern Europeans weren't that unique from then on. It's hard to explain, but before that it was considered quite something if you knew somebody from the Eastern Bloc or had been there, which I was. Now, with the avalanche of Eastern Germans pushing through the border, that sense of uniqueness fell away and that kinda annoyed me.

The same went with Poles. However, that was a more national feeling: we Dutch had helped them survive winters and we made some contacts here and there and for the first few months it was kinda special to see Polish ppl, but soon they came in big numbers to our second-car markets and to see that they bought a piece of junk of a car (usually a Beamer or Mercedes as they had some status) for about 100 Dutch Guilders (about 45-50 Euros), take it home to the Motherland, refurbish it just a bit -or sometimes not even at all- and sold the same piece of junk in PL for ten to twenty times that amount, took away the magic and made most Dutch ppl view Poles as very materialistic. Also, the way they dressed in those days: extremely over-the-top and just a bit too much of everything, did help establish this image.

Of course this behaviour of Poles is understandable, after decades of communism they were like children for the first time away from home, and later on this behaviour changed, but for some reason this first image of Poles, the poor ppl we helped survive through winters, never fully changed yet in NL. Unfortunately.

Of course there were "family-reunions" between families who had received a lot of help and the families who had given that help, but it was this first image the Dutch got from the Poles that was never fully erased and is mainly the reason how Poles are being viewed upon by the masses. Not only in NL, but also in DE. And the massive migration that started literally on 10 May 2004, didn't help to change this image for the better. Although it's getting better: ppl see less and less Poles overdress, they only sparsely buy pieces of junk and when they do, it's for themselves, ppl come to realise that not every Pole steals, at least the vast majority doesn't do so and they've come to know the Poles as hard workers. In NL the outrage of the treatment of illegal Polish (and other former East Bloc) workers has helped raise the sympathy for Poles. We're getting there, but yet there is still a residue of those first impression we got from them. They say that the first impressions are the most important, the first cut is the deepest, and I guess it will take a generation before all the prejudices about Poles have vanished.

But they are underway: it seems that Polish girlies have taken a fondness of Dutch boys and it also seems that Poles, scattered around the country have "assimilated" much better than in Ireland or the UK, for example, while those countries have bigger numbers. We even have a Polish chickadee as one of our newsreaders (or is she Czech? Eva "boooobies" Jinek). We're getting to a truly united Europe. It's a painstakingly slow process, but we're getting there.

>^..^<

M-G (messenger of hope and future and stuff)

Man...the first generation growing up in a united Europe is underway! No more wars or walls...

Crikey, I find myself agreeing with one of your posts, woe is me :-))


Maybe this is a bit harsh, after all most people just wanted to live their lives not fight in a war all the time.

Those that could leave Poland did, infact 750,000 Polish economic migrants left communist Poland during 1960s to 80's for the USA alone (Source: Illegal Immigration in America). Don't know how many Poles overstayed on visitior visas elsewhere in the world?

But post-WWII collaboration with the communists is never mentioned here unless it was Jewish collaboration, only communist crimes against Poles (of which there were many), but these were not Polish communist crimes against Poles but communist crimes by Jews against Poles even after most of the Jews were expelled from Poland in the 1960s purges. However 28,000 Catholic priests collaborated with Polish communist security services, and these would not be the only group just getting along with life.

Well...that you had in common with most people in the soviet bloc (and in the western bloc I believe).


The GDR build a wall to stop just that! No visa at all for the ordinary east german, jailed for life.

niejestemcapita

Thank you for your valuable contribution.

:)

Her name is indeed Ewa Jinek and the "boobies" reference comes from an incident that happened last year: on youtube, a video was leaked that showed her preparing for a newsbroadcast. During the whole time she was blabbering on about if her boobs should be more visible or not. She was not aware that she was being recorded at the time. During that video, she suddenly screams in a high-pitched voice: "booooobies"!!! And that is her nickname ever since. There even has been made a dancetrack with this scream as sample...

(just for those who don't know this story and think that I am just slagging her as donthaveahead thinks I am)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Jinek

It actually turns out that she was born in the US from Czech parents. I thought she was Polish, mea culpa.

>^..^<

M-G (coffee)